Doxologies, Delirium and Discussion: Religion Chat Thread number 3

[nickelbabyhatcher]

Here we are!

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Oldies welcome, newbies welcome, anyone welcome!

It's basically a "what happened in church/spiritual life/anything else you want to chat about that's vaguely related (or not) to churchy stuff.

Baroque - congratulations - it sounds amazing!

Morning everyone

Still stuck in with lurgy here and feeling fed up. Need some cheering up so lurking on MN and FB, but feel more like sleeping and hiding away. I know if I seleep too much now I won't tonight.

We need a good robust discussion on here I feel. Any suggestions? Not GK related?

you should be on the PCC - you want to have a robust discussion, but you're not sure what about!

I am on the DCC, and yes the discussions are very robust indeed, if somewhat depressing at times, going down the road of 3 year 'discussions' about not putting holes in walls etc This time will be deciding how to spend some legacies - should be fun There are those who want to spend them on church life and mission, and those who want to get stuff like prettier robes and stuff. Robes! Thats a good discussion. For or against? Me- hate the things. Looking forward to new post where dh will not have to wear them apart from at certain occasions and services etc. If you like them, why? Discuss.

See, there's a good discussion.

I like Robes.
I think they make the staff look professional.
and at least, if someone is wearing Robes, you can tell who they are.
At St MAry's, they have visiting clergy, and whenever I've been, they don't wear Robes, and it jut doesn't look as nice.
It looks too much like they're at a social event, rather than leading a service.
It's a uniform - when they're doing their job, they should be wearing their uniform.
It's even the same with Choir - at St Mary's, the singing group just wears normal clothes, and it looks shoddy.

See - I get the uniform thing, and think the dog collar is sufficient to mark clergy out. The robes - I just don't get it. They seem to me dated, irrelevant and make clergy in many quarters into a laughing stock. I do appreciate some find them helpful, but in general they seem to be viewed as somewhat amusing at best, at worst utterly daft and outdated, and seem to me to put some people off church - the whole tradition thing does seem to put some off though, and then again some hate the whole modern church thing, so I guess it is each to their own.
The other thing that bothers me about robes I guess is their origin, which is in the Old Testament and the priestly garments. But then Jesus came, tore the curtain to the Holy Place, so there was no need for that special priest in his special clothes....Jesus just wore the normal clothes of the day, and he was the great high priest - so somehow to me it seems wrong that clergy dress up in this way, and that bishops etc have ever more intricate garments, and they all cost a fortune etc - just doesn't sit comfortably with me in terms of how I feel about the movement Jesus started. But that's a whole argument for church structure and hierarchy I guess, and I do have some time for it (good thing seeing as dh works in it ) - I just feel 'wrong' about robes.

But I know some argue that they give glory to God....just don't quite get it. But then I am a plebby HC lowchurcher

Butthe Robes are uniform.
So, if you see a postman, that's his uniform, and if you see a vicar, then s/he should be wearing his/her uniform.
But only whilst working - I'm not saying the Vicar should wear Robes all the time.

It puts a sense of priority into the worship - it's the most important thing you should be doing, therefore you should look your best.
You wouldn't go to a formal ball dressed in trainers and jeans, would you? No, you'd wear your bestest frock and shoes.
it's the same thing.
Plus, you'd be amazed how scruffy some people look in their normal clothes!
The Robes hide all that - make them smart and presentable before God.

I hate the idea of being in the choir at a service and not wearign my robes. I'd feel like a fraud.
In actaul fact, once when we were going to do a service (it was snowing and the Churchwarden who was leadign it couldn't get to church, so the deputy took over) - it was suggested that we didn't wear our Robes for the service (there were very few congregation and they were all sitting in the choir stalls)
We were still there as The Choir, and we still had an anthem to sing.
I had a bit of a strop about it and equated it to being Naked in the service!
(that is how I feel about it - DH thought I was mad thinking that we would be maked, but he's very slow to catch on, so.... (he's very literal and doesn't understnad metaphor))

How did it feel at the moment of Baptism? Indescribable! Felt like there was no-one else there!

You want me to write something ermm, can I think about it???

Robes - "meh" - stopped wearing mine when I was pg with DS2 (wouldn't fit them anymore) - and never put them back on again. There are many jobs in the church which are just as important as the singers, or the musicians or the vicar - there's no "uniform" for the intercessors, the cleaners, those who take communion out to the old people's homes, those who visit the prison to take a service (not even licencsed lay people most of them) What makes the rest so special???

God doesn't give two hoots about what we're wearing on the outside.

I nearly "got dressed up" for my baptism and then realised no - I'll go in my normal clothes that I usually wear to church because he doesn't care what I wear on the outside, it's what's in my heart that matters.

Though sadly I couldn't trump the 3rd person to be baptised who came back from getting changed wearing a bright yellow t-shirt with a big smiley face on it and "Happy" across the top

DutchOma - that was him "dressed up" for his baptism

You can think about it.

Please come back regularly to the thread too..........
(you don't have to go anywhere else, just here......)

Hmm, I think that all the other people who do jobs in the church need uiniforms too. Especially Sidespeople, Churchwardens etc. - that's mainly so people can tell who they are and what job they do.
I'm not sure what an intercessor is - is that who gives out the wine? If so, our servers do that, and they wear Robes.
You should always wear some kinf od Robe when cleaning, an apron or tabard, but not a posh one

"God doesn't give two hoots about what we're wearing on the outside. "
that's as maybe, but he does know how people feel in their hearts, and I don't think he'd want me to go out to the stalls feeling naked and wrong .
I feel like I'm doing my duty when I've got those robes on, and if I haven't got them on, I don't feel the same. That's my inside, and that's what's important to God.

I'm with you Baroque - see I don't think that we have to be dressed up to worship God, to be compared to going to a ball etc - we are all as we are before God and he sees our heart, so I am fine with clergy in jeans and trainers...if dh is not in robes he still looks smart but not suits etc. I just feel uncomfortable with the idea of robes, I hate all the cathedral processing thing anyway (sorry nickel ) it just doesn't do it for me. But I appreciate that this helps others worship so I'm not saying 'scrap robes for all!' Choirs....hmmmm....I suppose it's nice when choirs all look the same iin their unifrom but saying that I hated my robes when I was in the choir, preferred casual dress...I don't know.

lol at the happy t shit!

happy t shirt

do you feel naked now??? Because we're Christians and supposed to worship him ALL the time - not just in church. If we need a "uniform" so as not to feel naked in front of him............what about the rest of the week when we're not in church?? I don't only serve him on Sundays

Intercessors are those that do the prayers What about the cleaners (an btw I've never been into church and seen anyone cleaning with an apron or tabard on LOL) , those that come in and do things behind the scenes, the Sunday school teachers, . Everyone in the chuch has a part to play, what use is the head without a body, or a foot without a leg, or a finger without a hand. No part is more important than another and I don't feel that we should be singling people out because their job is "more important".

I've been to many churches were not even dog collars were worn, and I've never had any trouble identifying people who would help me with whatever it was I needed. The stewards, the welcomers, the people who would whisk my children away etc. Generally they actually approach me, and if not then another part of the body of the church has always directed me in the way to go.

hahahaha @ your typo Madhair

I don't mind the cathedral processing thing either, I think it has its place. The Bishop came to our church recently for the schools 300th Birthday and he spoke about the clothes he wears..............very interesting what he had to say (basicaly "yeah I wear it because I have to and it does help identify who I am, but actually I'd still be the same person doing the same job without it"). And certainly when the Lay Readers were licensed a few weeks back and he'd changed out of his stuff and was just wearing a dog collar........he was sill the Bishop

I don't feel naked now, but I'm not "part of the choir" now.
I'm doing my other job.
Of course I know we're worshipping him all the time!
It's just when we're doing a service, it's almost like we're putting on a show for him. We're playing a part in a big scene.
It's not the same as just doing our own worship in our own time.
It looks better, and it feels better.

I still think it looks more professional.

I think it can look bloody awful when clergy/choir/servers are in normal clothes.
It looks like they don't give a shit about the role they're undertaking.

but it's not about putting on a show for him.

"I bring You more than a song
For a song in itself
Is not what You have required
You search much deeper within
Through the way things appear
You're looking into my heart"

He doesn't want a show for him on Sunday's, he wants us to worship him, and that doesn't matter what we're wearing. He's not really impressed by pomp and fabulous performed music (either traditional or modern), it's all meaningless unless what is at the root of it is worshipping him. I just don't see how singin with or without a robe makes it any different

ah, re: intercessors - yeah, that makes sense.
They're not normally prescribed that role though, they're normally normal members of the congregation that have been put on the rota.
I do think that's different. They're more like a chosen spokesperson than a person doing a specific job.

and I love processions and all the traditions that go with it
It's like watching hundreds of years of history marching by.

Well quite frankly I don't care what other people think about my outward appearance I generally play the organ in my jeans and a fitted t-shirt. Heck, sometimes I even wear my pink converse, and Ive been known to have my Saints (local Rugby team) Hoodie on (with the hood down) when it's cold (as there's a terrible draft from the door when you're sat at the organ).

Do you think the 12 disciples went out and bought nice clothes to go and spread the word of God in?? nah I doubt it - they went in their everyday clothes, what they always wore because that's how God had called them.

Do you believe that he doesn't care what you're doing, B ?
just because some people/churches prefer modern and some prefer traditional, doesn't mean he doesn't care which is which.

He wants us to worship whatever it takes, but I don't belive he would be happy with me (for example) feeling unhappy, naked and ashamed, put out and grumpy in a service because I've been put in something that I don't want to be in.
I want to praise God in my way, and I want everyone who praises Him to be happy in their own way.
I will respect the "traditions" of whatever church I'm in at the time of the service, but God will be able to feel that I don't like it.
I think he cares abotu that.

I think he cares about how we feel.
If you associate Worship with horrid mediaeval Robes and marching up and down, and that's not your bag, then you'll hate worship.
If you like the traditions and the old music and the Robes, then if the option you have is GK and clapping and waving arms around and clergy with scruffy jeans on, then you'll hate worship.
that's not whatGod wants is it!

comment on your draft - cassocks are incredibly warm!

OK yeah, I concede that processions can look pretty impressive and the history thing etc, but worship wise it turns me off

I don't think services are about putting on a show for God, it's more about gathering together with others to worship, to learn, to be together in what we believe. So within that I find some people having certain clothes doesn't fit in. Lanyards with names and positions a good idea (ie Mrs Brown, kids worker etc) but robes just seems out of place to me in something that is about worshipping God and not men.

ooh, I paid for a year's worht of the Cartoon Church usage.
So I'll link to this one (i thought it was very funny and true)
hymn books

yes, mhd very true.
in fact, one thing that we learn when we're doing Voice for Life training is that we're singing for God, so when we sing, we have to do our best every time. (not because we're earning dots for money, Junior Chorister... )
and part of that to me is dressing in the right way for our Choir. I'm standing tall and smart in my robes, and I'm singing my best. God loves that because he knows that's how I can serve him.

We all bring our best to him, in whatever way we can.
Lanyards or Cassocks, it's all the same to God, but the important thing is that we're happy with worship.