Doxologies, Delirium and Discussion: Religion Chat Thread number 3

[nickelbabyhatcher]

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Oldies welcome, newbies welcome, anyone welcome!

It's basically a "what happened in church/spiritual life/anything else you want to chat about that's vaguely related (or not) to churchy stuff.

I just don't think God cares about all of that. Yes it may look nice on the outside, but then I see lots of well dressed, smart looking, professional type people out and about who I'm pretty sure are about as far away from God as they can be.

And then there's our lovely T (DS3's Godfather who was Baptised on Sunday as well) Tattoed, even his "smart" clothes are extremely casual, and it's rare he'll find a pair of trousers to come to churchi n that's not got paint stains on it. He is the most amazing, deeply committed Christian man I have met for a long time. I can't believe how much he has changed in such a short space of time! Not on the outside, he's still a scruffy sod (as his wife - my best friend) describes him) - but his heart.........

I think he cares how we feel too nickel. I just don't think we can say 'robes are best' or 'casual dress is best'. We can only come back to the old horses for courses thing and be happy that there is so much variety, and that is how God made us, so if you feel happier before God in services in your robes, well then, that's fine, but you can see that say my dh feels happier without them, and more able to worship, so it works both ways iyswim :)

B - your organ attire sounds good to me

nope - the cassocks DID NOT HELP THE DRAFT. The draft gets you right on the back of the neck, the bit that the cassock just doesn't cover I NEED that hoodie to cover my neck.

I think we have to ask ourselves WHY we would feel a particular way. Is it a "God thing" or a personal thing? Is your feeling of nakedness because of something written in the bible or because of something else, something "human" that we all get hung up on, traditions that aren't really relevena.t

I'm quite happy in a cathedral or at that AWESOME Stuart Townend evening I went to last Friday. I can worship all ways. I can find the beauty and God in Purcell as much as I can find him in Casting Crowns.

I know he cares what I'm doing but not what I look like when I'm doing it. He's certainly not stopped blessing me because I'm one of the few "scruffy" ones in our church - far from it he just doesn't seem to be stopping right now

B - God knows they're not dressed smartly for him.
that's the difference.
and yes, he knows that your friend T has his whole heart set on God, and he would also know if T thought one day "oh, bugger I don't look smart for church, I'd better change" but T doesn't so far, and God can see that that's what's important to T. (iyswim)

exactly, mhd - we can say "Robes are best for me " and "casual is best for me "
and God knows that too.
:)

ahhh the converse aren't the easiest to play in, though they're easier than the chunky timberland but harder than my trainers.

right need to get my little man to school for the afternoon

I believe God doesn't care what we wear.

I find a minister in a really expensive suit offputting. Makes me think "Oh, thats where the collection goes, is it?". I like robes for their symbolism. I went into school the other week, and took 1 chasuble in, plus 4 stoles and we looked at the symbols, and the meaning of the colours, and the kids loved it.

I like wearing my robes because I feel different, that its no longer me, but God's message thats important. And I don't have to worry so much about what I'm wearing underneath, because my robes are a "cover all" :o. My robes are always the same, so it doesn't turn into a fashion parade of "Oh I like the dress you're wearing today" or whatever... And my scarf is symbolic of the 3 years I spent studying to earn it!

B - you're allowed to wear your hoodie, don't panic!

yes, i think it probably is traditions that "aren't relevant", but I think the fact some of us want to uphold them means that we do think they're relevant to our own way of worship.

re: your music comments
It's one of the reasons I hate it when I hear our choir sing a hymn of praise like they think they're singing a hmyn of lament.
the bloody way they sang (i say they, because I was trying to sing it happily) Christians Shout for Joy and Gladness, itsounded like they were singing a dirge.
It was awful.
:(

Mary - a wonderful way of putting it - "it's not me but God's message that is important"
:)

but why would T have to change?? His heart has changed (dramatically!). God didn't anywhere that I can remember in the bible say "go out and buy some really nice clothes before you serve me and make sure you look "smart" before you do my work".

Thankfully at our church no-one bats an eyelid if T and I turn up in our Jeans and trainers, while the person sat next to us is in theri suit.

I was brought up always to wear "Sunday best" - but as I got older I began to wonder why. As I've looked further at it I've failed to find any clue in the Bible that says when I go to church on a Sunday I must wear something different from what I wear during the week and make an effort to look outwardly better. I can't help but feel that this was probably something that was brought in by the middle ages church to make the wealthy people feel "holier" than the rest because they were (outwardly) clean and tidy.

Hello all, see Baroque has come back to visit and here we are having a good meaty discussion

Can't stop now as have to take emergency ice creams to our work team who are melting but I'll be back later to join you!

nonononononononooooo, i didn't say T had to change!
I said that if T suddenly thought "oh, i'm not wearing the right clothes" then he would have to change!
It would be him thinking that he wan't dressing right for God.
That was purely hypothetical! He is dressing right for God right now, as he sees fit, and that's his personal decision.

there is that lovely reference in the bible about Adam and Eve dressing suddenly because they ate the fruit from the forbidden tree

well we were all made to be naked but because of what happened in Eden we ended up covering ourselves up

SO that leaves me with only one conclusion - God really doesn't care what we wear on the outside.and churches should be nudist places

anyway, in the middle ages church, they actually just wore clean clothes!
It most likely came from the fact that they only washed their clothes once a week, and therefore they made sure that they would wear their clean clothes to church on a sunday.
Over the years (probably when washday changed to monday!), it seems to have changed to sunday best, andthat's how it stayed. (mine was usually saturday night clothes thatwould be covered by the all-forgiving robes..... )
But I bet it all stemmed from them wearing their clean clothes for church, which would then be their clothes for the rest of the week (they probably only had one set of clothes too)

I was thinking that myself

hahahah I x posted with your 13.54.32 post

great minds

hehe at churches as nudist places

Could be the latest fresh expression

So we've got Goth Church
Surfers Church
Naturist Church

and why not?

Mary I get what you say about robes making you feel more anonymous or whatever but the problem for me is I find them more offputting so end up concentrating on them far more than if the preacher was wearing say T shirt and jeans...I know it's my own fault but I think that is the way for many people, that the robes themselves will actually distract a lot of people from the message, and that can not be a good thing....then again as you say so might a suit or jeans or whatever....so it's hard to think what would be best to wear. Middle ground? dh wears smart-ish black chino things with a funky jacket and his clergy shirt/dog collar and that seems to work...nothing drawing attention to himself I guess. But people should also dress to reflect their personality, and I always dress sort of smart casual so if I am leading a service I'll probably be in a wrap dress and boots type of combo...and I have a friend who is a goth and a vicar and dresses in all sorts of goth gear with piercings etc, and does that distract people from what she is saying? Possibly, but if it does, then that's their problem...and so should be with me and robes....hmmmm.

ah, I waited years to get the opportunity to wear robes (chorister wannabe for many many years, thanks mum ), so I'm relishing it!

I gave the sermon in a dressing gown with a towel round my head the other week - I guess that would be distracting :o. We're all different, and thats OK. God comes to meet us where we are, he doesn't insist that we all conform (good thing when some are nonconformist :o ).

I am such a hypocrite. On the one hand, I don't think it should matter what you wear to church and that God looks at your heart, not your clothes. On the other, although I believe it shouldn't matter what you wear when I think about it I never wear scruffy clothes to church and usually wear a skirt. When I was a student and was very scruffy I turned up to a Free Church of Scotland service out of curiosity one Sunday in jeans (that may well have been ripped at the knee). All of the women and older girls there were in skirts and I think they were wearing hats too. I felt soooo out of place. I guess for me it is about wearing what you feel comfortable in and if that is jeans or a cassock then so be it.

That doesn't make you a hypocrite :), you are just being honest :)

Morning everyone :)

Interesting discussion yesterday.

Starting to plan the licensing for dh - will be v different to normal licensing as there is no church to be licensed into. i'm thinking a worship band, and lots of worship to start out in that place, claim the ground so to speak , obv we have to do the whole licensing liturgy with bishop etc but he is fantastic in letting us do what we think would be best...we are going to hire the school hall. Any ideas?

I agree with mary jaffa - you are being honest, and relly, that's all that matters, isn't it! :)

Ooh, I like the idea of hiring the school hall - that's really taking it to the centre of the community, isn't it! :)
Have you managed to get opinions back from the "parishioners" yet? You said ages ago you would be asking local people what they wanted.
You can still fit tradition in with Worship Bands, you know - just pick the hymns that sound good on a guitar....

I haven't finished that discussion!

I've brought in the Living Light Magazine to quote!

It's from last week, but the reading was from Colossians 3:12-17
"12 Therefore, as God?s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. "

Monday (13th June) said
"....when prosperous citizens became Christians they probably got baptized there. Before they plunged intot hte water they took off their rich robes to show they were leaving behind their old lives (vv 5-9) and as they came up again they put on pure white clothes to symbolize their new lives as christians (v10) Paul loved this "taking off and putting on" simile and often urged Christians to "put on Jesus" and wear his qualities and characteristics like royal robes."
(then there's a bit about a friend of the buy being atheist)

Wednesday has a bit about an overcoat, too.
and Friday covers singing.

I'm going to scan the pages and put them on photobucket, so you can all read them in your own time

Love those passages nickel. It's all very metaphorical, putting on a pure white robe to symbolise our freedom, and that surely applies to each one of us, and would mean if literal we'd all be walking round in robes the whole time, and that would be no good, because I am too much of a fashion victim like clothes.

The whole clothe oursleves in love, purity etc bit - that kind of sums up the whole argument for me...that's what we should be seeking to do, clothing ourselves from the inside out in a way, not about what we are literally wearing but spiritually, what God can see, what makes us clean. We have freedom Not to wear robes (and freedom to do so, if we please) :)

Will defo be including some hymns, I love a lot of hymns, and some sound stonking with a good worship band, will prob ask a few friends who are gifted musicians to form the band. As for asking parishioners, problem is there is no church so no parishioners as such - so it's who you would ask, from the community, when there is no representation as yet...hmmm...