Doxologies, Delirium and Discussion: Religion Chat Thread number 3

[nickelbabyhatcher]

Here we are!

Roll up and sign in!

Oldies welcome, newbies welcome, anyone welcome!

It's basically a "what happened in church/spiritual life/anything else you want to chat about that's vaguely related (or not) to churchy stuff.

I wonder if they felt the same in the middle ages when composers started writing anthems that rather resembled some of the secular madrigals in style

I really think the main thing that puts me off is the reaction of the people when that kind of music is played.
It's an odd sort of idolization that happens.
It's, kind of, when all those girls used to scream and faint at their favourite rock stars - it was the rock stars they were lusting after.
then suddenly, music celebrating God is in the same style, but it's no longer the rock stars they're lusting after, it's Jesus.

That kind of music sexualizes Jesus and God.
I think that's how I feel about it.

It's true - that "I wonder if they felt the same in the middle ages when composers started writing anthems that rather resembled some of the secular madrigals in style"

When Hymns Ancient and Modern was compiled, sooo many people moaned and complained about the volume of modern hymns in it. What's wrong with the traditional music? they said.
Now most of those Modern hymns have stood the test of time!

hehe- can I confess I just had to spt my coffee back into my mug at your 2nd from last line

that kind of music sexualizes Jesus?

that's how it comes across to me.

I find it icky
[boak]

or the traditional music?

it's funny how it's evolved isn't it, back in the middle ages the though of the commoners singing anything in the church just awful - that was the job of the choir (often of course including the castrati as you couldn't have a woman singing with the men), then they started lettting them sing, then people started writing hymns to go fit with popular secular music.

I guess there's probably a lot of music written 1,2,3,400 years ago for the church that didn't survive the test of time, and no doubt in another 400yrs time the same will apply to music written today.

very true.
there's not really that much music that survives from before the Victorians, and that which does is usually more anthems and oratorias, rather than hymns

the sexualizes Jesus on - I x posted with you.

Thing is they're singing about their love for Jesus, but isn't one of the most important commandments, love the lord your God with all of your heart, with all of your soul and with all of your mind? So is it actually so wrong to be singing about your love for God??

yes, i agree, they are.
but it's the style and the lust that goes into it.
I'm pretty sure that God didn't mean "with all your groins" when he wrote that commandment - he was thinking a little bit more pure

that's why he doesn't say "with all your body" - he misses that bit out.

He wants a more spiritual love.

I guess I just stll struggle with why the traditionalist who think worhship should be restrained have picked the 1600-1900's as their period of time to be traditional to.

I blame it on the Romans.........

But surely the body bit comes from the rest of it? I mean back in the good(?) old days when I was in love with the ex, I didn't just feel it, think it and say it, I showed it too.

jsut wait - in 100 years time, it'll have moved onto 1700-2000s. apart from the obvious amazing movements.

There are loads of fab office hymns from the 15th/16th century that very rarely get sung these days - when they're sing 4 parts, they can sound amazing, but when you start to learn them, you think "WTF?? who the hell thought that a discord that obvious would be a good thing to listen to??"
but you get used to it and find yourself going "oh, i really love that peice, gives me goosebumps"

a lot of the great Victorian hymns will probably get the same reaction in 200 years.

yes, but that was love of a man sanctioned by God.
That's what he designed the to bodies for.
He didn't intend Jesus to feel the love of a woman , so it seems improper to see lusting n the crowd when Jesus is being sung about.

yes but the love for husband/wife isn't the only type of love which people display to one another. There are many references in the bible to Jesus loving people. And of course Mary loved him - he was her son! And people came, in great numbers, to worship Jesus, and just to see him.

and besides you're detracting from my question about why it was ok to clap hands, and use all manner of instruments and dance when worshipping in Biblical times but the traditionalists want to stick with the restrained (imported from Rome no doubt.....) worship of the middle ages

and this isn't getting my stuff done so we're ready to go on Saturday

get on with your packing!

It still is okay to jump, clap hands and raise armsetc, just not in church.

I think it was all to do with etiquette and stuff introduced after the reformation.
I bet there was still free-form worship before Henry.

actually, no, it must have gone back before then.

Yes, you're right, blame Rome.

so does that mean I can raise my arms and dance and jump as much as I like next week as we won't actually be in a church

yeah, that's fine.

just don't start weeping and proclaiming how much you love Jesus and start shuddering like you're having an orgasm cos you're filled with the love of the holy spirit.

well................I could tell you of the occasion when I was 15 and going through a sceptical stage where I found myself lying on the floor due to the Holy Spirit (I started believe again after that I can tell you!) - I know no-one pushed me over as no-one was touching me. And no I didn't faint, I was out for most of the rest of the service, but was concious at the same time (if that makes sense - well no it doesn't it's actually totally impossible to describe)

I have also witnessed the same happening to others, and healing, and speaking in tongues........

oooh.

Ooooh have just been busy all day and come back to great convo here. Now I'm going to come and say my bit and revolt annoy nickel some more But it's all OK cos we all love each other and all that

Well, here's how I see - and experience it all. A lot of the psalms use the kind of language that some of the songs you refer to do, saying things like 'I yearn for you, my body longs for you...' ...'As the dear pants for the water so my soul thirsts for you...' 'Because your love is better than life my lips will glorify you...' Hardly restrained language - pretty full on and some might see sexual imagery involved. Now tbh, I don't have a problem with sexual comparisons here, because for me how I see and experience God is that full on, is that deep, is that awesome and huge. And look at Song of Songs - this is often used to talk about God's love for us and our love for God - and that's as close to hardcore porn as you get in the bible It's not in any way a new thing. I guess it's humans trying to express the depth of what they experience in God, the depth of his love, and the depth of what God has done for us - expressing our sincere thanks and praise, our gratefulness, our adoration. I can't find words to express it really - it just goes too deep I guess. But for me it's a natural expression of worship, and somehow when I am worshipping in this way I feel the most fully whole I ever feel, there can be an incredible sense of peace and joy and just rightness with everything.

As for experiences of the Holy Spirit, I realise they can look weird and to some may seem irreverent and wrong, but I have found them to empower me and increase my faith. The 'shaking like an orgasm' thing is just the power of God. It's something amazing. You can't explain it. It doesn't feel horrible. Just like waves of love, of power. Not in a sexual way. It involves your deepest soul, but it is physical too. It's just gloriously lovely. Honestly. Speaking in tongues - just a love language. Sometimes I can't find words to pray, esp if it's for a difficult situation. With tongues it's just like you're expressing deep feelings and words you can't get on a human level. It's liberating. it's not woo, not made up. I can't speak gibberish for the life of me. It's something utterly natural. My friend had an experience where she was in a part of south America where they spoke a remote spanish dialect. She was praying with someone in tongues as she didn't know how to pray. The person turned in shock saying 'how do you know my language and how do you know my situation?' There is loads of stuff like that.

Nickel I know it seems horrible to you. But it's something incredible, freeing, making everything somehow make sense. Not saying I've got the answers or indeed that I've got it right and you haven't - far, far from it. I just suppose I want to stand up for this kind of thing, because I believe it's what God gave us as a gift. I understand your reservations and thoughts about it being like a concert where girls lust, because it can look like that i guess, but for me it's about worship going to a place I can't on other levels, on trying to express the deep truths of who God is, on being who I am created to be.

Oh yes and I heart Delirious. If you diss them I will be Angry. So There. They cannot be compared to Sir Graham

Sorry about the essay!

I don't like song of solomon, and I do get uncomfortable when we do the deer and the yearning thing.
I actually have to remind myself that it's not sexual.
(because it's completely different from snurking at rude words made up from perfectly normal ones. Like Adam lay ybounen, and most highly flavoured lady etc)

at your friend's speaking in tongues experience.

I suppose that part of it seems odd to me, even alien because I don't know anyone who's experienced it, nor have I had anything like that myself.
I know that I feel spiritually lifted, almost happy when I'm close to God, but it's more like my head feels less heavy than anything bodily
Plus, I have witnessed the way (in my history) some pentecostals exhibit that part of them, and it's rather frenzied . then they become quite vehement (and in some cases quite violent with it) and that frightened me away from that kind of behaviour.

don't worry about essay - was very interesting reading, actually. :)