Dog had 'red mist' moment and bit DH, AIBU to think that with training this won't happen again?

[Antalya1]

We are a family with DS17 & DS20. About 4 weeks ago we got a rescue dog, he's about 2 ish and a cross between a shitsu and a yorkshire terrier we think. He's a little thing and has been an absolute joy and has brought a lovely new dynamic to our family.

As I was at home more of less for the first 3 weeks the dog has bonded with me and then next I suppose with DS20, we both have spent a lot of time playing and just generally being loving with him.
DS17 is indifferent and DH has been pretty loving also. We all take responsibility for feeding and walks.

As he was so shy and frightened when we first got him, we allowed him into our bed and he's just sort of stayed there.

When I'm working from home, he cuddles up and spends the day with me.

Over the last 10 days or so, the dog has been growling sometimes at DH, especially when DH comes near me, tries to stroke him, or DH tries to get in bed.

This evening I was sat in bed doing some work and DH came up to the bedroom, the dog started growling at DH so I told DH to pick him up and put him out of the room until he stopped. DH picked him up and the growling got much worse and the dog seemed as though he was going to bite DH, so DH dropped him, the dog sprang at DH and seemed to have a 'red mist' moment, jumping up and bit him, breaking the skin 4 times on his legs and stomach.

We were all really shocked. DH is OK and has been to be checked out but is really shaken and upset and talking about getting rid of the dog.

I'm devasteted, first that the dog who is incredibly loving mostly would do this to DH and also really frightened that DH will insist that we take the dog to a dog and cats home.

I've been in tears tonight thinking about this but I know that if there's a chance that he would do this again then there would be no choice. I've persuaded DH to wait until I can get in touch with a dog behavioural expert tomorrow and I'm pinning my hopes that there is something that they can do...AIBU to think about keeping my dog and that there is something we can do to stop this happening again?

"Surely a dog that bites is a dangerous dog?"

No, it isn't, it depends on the circumstances. Likewise just because a dog doesn't bite doesn't mean it is safe, thinking if the instances in which dogs have killed.

It is about knowing about what a dog needs and why they behave in the way that they do.

The recent programme about dogs left alone was fascinating, in every case of anxiety, it was the iwners that needed correcting, not the dog.

Citing child deaths isn't helpful, you have to look at why they happened, in many cases it involves illegal breeds and badly socialised dogs, then a child left alone in the dogs house.

Research should be done about the possible problems with a re-homed dog (I used to foster German Shepherds)

Careful and precise handling needs to happen in the settling in period if a new adult dog.

A dog that gives a warning, generally can be cured, as there is a period of time that the dogs fear or anxiety has built up, remove the triggers, gain the dogs trust and the behaviour never happens again.

That's interesting about the law errol - I genuinely thought they had to be out down With my job I have seen a lot of children over the years who have been bitten by dogs and in such circumstances the A&E departments have contacted the Police and the dog has been removed and PTS straight away. Or is that just because it has happened to a child and not an adult?

I imagine though that a lot of adults would never 'turn their own dog in' if it bit them anyway as they would probably down play it or find a justifiable reason for it?

birdsgottafly - I really wanted to watch that Documentary about dogs being left alone during the day. The advert was sad enough I was gutted when I realised I had missed it.

erol - and I understand that the husband can make a decision as to whether the dog is a real danger to him but surely they need to consider if the dog is a danger to others too? And if they did choose to re-home if they weren't comfortable with it being in the house, who in their right mind would want to take on a dog after being told the reason the dog is being re-homed is because it bit the previous owners four times?

I think in all this we need to know what your DH wants to do? Can you imagine the uproar on here if the dog had attacked you and your DH wanted to keep it. He was hurt and it was mainly caused by your inexperience with dogs.

Why did you not go and get a dog from an approved rescue home? I seen many a disaster from those free to good home ads as people often just want rid and can be economical with the truth.

Generally speaking, an adult dog that hasn't grown up with its owners, should be picked up.

I am surprised that anyone would think that a dog should, if anything you should command the dog to leave the room.

You make the dog obey your verbal commands. Perhaps because I have only had GS's it seems strange that a response to a growl would be to try to pick the dog up (because mine are to big).

I think that it is no coincidence that small dogs get away with much more bad behaviour than larger breeds, they still need the same handling and in some breeds, Terriers, Pomerians etc they need tougher owners.

I also couldn't have a dog that had bitten someone in the house. What a sad situation though :(

Writer-it was a very positive documentary, all if the dogs were helped, after a little re -training if their owners

No writer. No one said as long as the dog growls before it bites then its ok. It has been pointed out that the dog growled.... Ie saying 'back off, I feel threatened/leave that person alone I think you're threatening them....' Obviously these are not actual thought processes but essentially a dog growling is a dog giving warning that it feels threatened in some way & may attack. Failure to recognise this resulted in this instance the dog attacking. If the dog had been listened to an attack would not have occurred... In all probability.

Oh dear, the dogs are killers things again. So are cars & people..... On a much bigger scale. Shall we ban them too?

Risk cannot ever be eliminated from our lives but by educating ourselves we can reduce it without knee jerk reactions.

This dog gave a clear warning that was ignored. Had he been listened to then the chances are the escalation to bite would not have occurred.

Op why done you move this to the dog house? From my limited experience here AIBU is not the best place for reasoned/balanced debate/advice.

Writerwannabe83...it's different if it is a child and it's a bad enough bite to warrant an A&E visit, both of those things together would mean it was handled differently than other situations might be.

OP - no-one on here knows why the dog bit, there are numerous guesses that are more likely, but, what you need is a professional.

He could be resource guarding you or the bed, he could be fear aggressive, he could be ill...go to your vet, tell them what happened and ask for a full check up including bloods and a referral to a behaviourist. That way you can rule out any physical problems and have him assessed by someone qualified.

A behaviourist will be able to give you a report stating what they think the issue is and what would be involved in working with him, then, you'll be able to decide whether it's possible for you to do that or not.

In the meantime, don't let him on the bed, don't pick him up and don't force a confrontation if he growls.

I've had a long chat with DH this morning about next steps. DH does want to keep the dog but has warned that another further episode will be the last. He's still upset and at this moment feels that although he will feed/walk he can't trust the dog and feels wary.

I've thought a lot about the last few weeks, hindsight is great!. DH from the very start has had the right approach but it's been myself and DS who have totally gone over the top spoiling the dog as we wanted to make him feel secure.

I can't even begin to tell you how guilty I feel about this, this is down to me, not the dog, and I will do everything that I can to make sure that I'm treating the dog in the right way. Saying that it's incredibly difficult as the mothering instinct in me, knowing that he's had a hard time just wants to shower him with love and affection to make him feel secure - I know now that this was doing the exact opposite.

I've contacted the rescue centre and had a good long chat and they've given me some advice:
For the next week, no stroking (basically ignore), keep off all furniture, must be in a bed downstairs (already have) and in no circumstances allowed upstairs. All to continue have equal responsibility for feeding/walking. Any growling to met with a firm NO, if dog not listening then I'm to reiterate the NO.
It will take months for the dog to earn privilages, such as being allowed upstairs.

They have given me the contact details of a dog behaviourist they use but have suggested that I wait a week to see how we get on. We can also take the dog up to them at the weekend for them to have a look.

Thank you so much everyone for all your posts, I've read them all and the help has been so useful.

Telling a dog off for growling is a massively bad idea...the end result of that can be a dog who no longer growls, but still has the original issue and will move straight to biting with no warning.

Please contact the behaviourist.

Add message | Report | Message poster Edendance Wed 27-Nov-13 11:33:59
Fluffaducks post on page one is correct. The pack animal mentality needs respect, dog needs to learn that he is at the bottom of the pack and DH is at the top. He is treating you like his underdog and 'protecting' you from DH.

Sorry, but that is absolute bollocks. Domesticated dogs are not 'pack animals', that theory is out dated rubbish.

You have had the dog for FOUR weeks. That is nothing in terms of settling in, and getting to know each other. He will still be a very anxious, shy, unsettled, and frightened little dog, who needs care, respect, and gentle correction to make him feel safe.

Get a crate, make him a dem in it, and learn to listen to the feelings he expresses. See a behaviourist, and learn how to listen to dogs.

Oh God, where did you get this dog? That advice is terrible.

Hi your rescue centre is really outdated. Yes keep a limited physical area, yes keep fussing to a minimum but don't say no to growling... See a behaviourist. Getting this bit right depends on your success. The doghouse section might be able to help with recommendations. I have children and lots of rescues through the door so I have to get this right and what you have been told is poor advice.

These responses don't make sense.Either it is behaving as a pack animal or it is a wrong'un you can't have it both ways!
Massive alarm bells are ringing for me that this dog came from a 'free to good home' ad. Why didn't they take it to a rescue centre?
THis wasn't a snappy bite , it was a sustained attack.I will eat my hat if it is its last bite.But anyway I jsut couldn't take that chance if it were my family.Will you be able to forgive yourself it it scars your teenage boy's face.

Totally agree with the posts saying you have been given very bad advice! Appallingly bad! Ignore it please! Google visit lots of dog forums & find a brhaviourist not recommended by that out of date rescue! If you do want ti do the best for your dog please do get off mn & spend your time googling researching & visiting dog forums. You will see for yourself how wrong your rescue centre is.

OK, put this on 'Dog House' and just going to walk to our vets to see them ,they have a behavioural specialist there

Great news! Good luck. :-)

So, now the onus is on the OP to get the dog to stop biting her family. What if she doesn't get the absolutely correct training (which everyone disagrees on); what if she fails to monitor the dog at all times for signs of aggression? Will it be her fault if it bites again?

I really think this dog has been passed around three homes very quickly for a very good reason and unless she is a specialist in treating aggressive/behaviourally disturbed dogs (it has been growling for at least half the time it has been with them) I wouldn't want to take it on.

It wasn't 'free to a good home', OP has just said she has spoken to the Rescue Centre. And your advice is quite crap really, they are NOT pack animals, they are fully domesticated. The dog is frightened and unsettled, and gave plenty of warning that it was scared. Not the dog's fault that the OP reacted incorrectly, at all.

If you don't know what you're talking about, please stop giving the poor OP wrong advice.

Fluff is right. The dog will be fine if you establish the boundaries, exactly as she has outlined. Be kind and thoughtful at all times. Eg getting anyone to pick him up while he is growling is a bad idea.

Just read Death's post too, and though she makes a lot of sense (esp w regard to him seeing you as a "resource"), the pecking order notion still holds, imo. Otherwise I would agree with everything she has said.

Hope your DH is feeling better.

To answer some questions, it was 4 seperate bites and the dog comes from an advert 'free to a good home' so not from a rescue centre

No- the OP phoned the local rescue centre for advice.

Sorry, OP I see yours is the third home. Hope it works out for you, your husband is being very lovely about it and perhaps you can see how it goes although as I say, I would be very suspicious that someone had a cute lovely dog they all fell in love with and adored then rehomed it a few months later as their circumstances had changed. Even you don't want to do that, and it's bitten your husband!

I have had and to some extent have exactly the same problem.

Got a young dog last June. Within five mins of been here he went for dh. In the first month he bit me a few times, dh several times, the neighbour, my mum, my SIL and one of dd's friends.

The bites ranged from mainly not breaking the skin but leaving a bruise, some bites with small puncture wounds and one where dh was bleeding quite badly afterwards.

I started a thread like this after the bad bite and got responses similar to this thread. People saying pts, rehome, carry on.

We had been working with a qualified behaviourist since the second week of having him.

I agree a growl is saying "leave me alone I'm not happy" and needs to be listened to. Rewarding good behaviour is key as well. So if dh comes in the room and the dog doesn't growl then you reward the dog with a high value treat. We go through cheese at a rate of knots.

Our dog is still here. He still growls and snarls at dh every single day. But he hasn't bitten him in quite some time and he hasn't bitten anyone else since the first few weeks. He doesn't growl and go for everyone he sees now on walks like he used to. Instead he's a happy dog who will wag his tail when someone comes to him.

It's taken ages, he's still hard work and there's still a long way to go.