Dog had 'red mist' moment and bit DH, AIBU to think that with training this won't happen again?

[Antalya1]

We are a family with DS17 & DS20. About 4 weeks ago we got a rescue dog, he's about 2 ish and a cross between a shitsu and a yorkshire terrier we think. He's a little thing and has been an absolute joy and has brought a lovely new dynamic to our family.

As I was at home more of less for the first 3 weeks the dog has bonded with me and then next I suppose with DS20, we both have spent a lot of time playing and just generally being loving with him.
DS17 is indifferent and DH has been pretty loving also. We all take responsibility for feeding and walks.

As he was so shy and frightened when we first got him, we allowed him into our bed and he's just sort of stayed there.

When I'm working from home, he cuddles up and spends the day with me.

Over the last 10 days or so, the dog has been growling sometimes at DH, especially when DH comes near me, tries to stroke him, or DH tries to get in bed.

This evening I was sat in bed doing some work and DH came up to the bedroom, the dog started growling at DH so I told DH to pick him up and put him out of the room until he stopped. DH picked him up and the growling got much worse and the dog seemed as though he was going to bite DH, so DH dropped him, the dog sprang at DH and seemed to have a 'red mist' moment, jumping up and bit him, breaking the skin 4 times on his legs and stomach.

We were all really shocked. DH is OK and has been to be checked out but is really shaken and upset and talking about getting rid of the dog.

I'm devasteted, first that the dog who is incredibly loving mostly would do this to DH and also really frightened that DH will insist that we take the dog to a dog and cats home.

I've been in tears tonight thinking about this but I know that if there's a chance that he would do this again then there would be no choice. I've persuaded DH to wait until I can get in touch with a dog behavioural expert tomorrow and I'm pinning my hopes that there is something that they can do...AIBU to think about keeping my dog and that there is something we can do to stop this happening again?

"You never know when the nicest dog will turn"

This little dog did everything in its power to warn that it wasn't happy - most people could predict that it would bite if pressed, surely?! What did you expect it to do, say "Awfully sorry MrAnt old chap but I'm not terribly sure I like you leaning over me like that, would you mind awfully just taking a few steps back? Good oh."

Dogs never just turn, it's the lack of insight we humans have into their language that is the failing here.

Don't let him on the bed!! that would be a start!!!

I wrote a long post which got eaten by my phone. Agree, your dog was mistakenly trying to defend you from DH; still new to the house and with somewhatunknown history. Provided this was a nip I think it's recoverable and agree with others who say keep your dog out of your bed, make sure you and DH are in control; never head in when a dog is growling, it is their warning. Whatever the ins and outs of the top dog/pack leader theory, I think there's truth in it. There's an excellent series by dog trainer Victoria Stilwell on C4 OD (probably on youtube by now - look for the British series not the American one) called It's Me or the Dog. Some very very similar situations tackled. I would also get a trainer in to support you - is this your first dog? - so that you can be clear on behaviour and know what to look for. Good luck OP.

Poor little dog. I understand that your DH will have had a fright (not to mention the physical pain of bites) which is upsetting, but I do feel rather sorry for this wee dog.

It has been (possibly) abandoned by it's first home, rehomed with four big people (albeit that they mean to be kind), almost certainly feels very insecure and anxious, and has been given a safe, secure space of it's own to sleep in (on your bed).

But, oops, that space of it's own has turned out to be not so safe and secure after all it keeps getting invaded. Being a good little dog, it tried to tell the invader to back off (it doesn't 'dislike' your DH). It said as loudly and clearly as it could "I'm feeling really anxious here, will you go away" it growled _ but the invader (of what the dog thought was to be it's own safe space) kept coming. Very, very anxious wee dog. He bit.

Does that make sense? On the plus side. I think this is completely 'fixable', but it will need the whole family 'on board' and wanting this little dog to feel safe and secure. Ask the rescue organisation that you homed him for and your vet for advice. I'm sure they'll be able to recommend someone to help you all build this little dog's confidence.

I'm going to go against the trend here and say yes, YABU to put a dog that you've owned for a couple of weeks over your husband who's been bitten by it. If you'd owned the dog for a few years and it suddenly started to be aggressive then I could understand your bond being strong enough to give it a chance, but you say it's been threatening your husband for the last 10 days and has now bitten him. It would be gone already in this house. It's a dog, it's only job is to be a pet. There are plenty of older dogs that don't bite looking for homes and by keeping this one you are putting your family at risk of being bitten and the nice, maybe not so cute dogs, waiting for a home on death row. Your husband has a right to show you affection, get in his own bed and do whatever he wants in his own house without worrying whether this is okay with a dog he's been kind enough to rehome. Those who compare animals to humans (one here to your own children even) need to get a grip. It's an animal with a life span of probably 10 years with the same intelligence as the animal you may well have eaten for your dinner tonight. It is unimportant! Your husband, your sons and your own safety is what matters here. Get rid!

All these people saying put the dog in a crate, or in the kitchen when it growls- how are you supposed to get a growling threatened dog into these places? How is the DH supposed to do that?

I wouldn't want to bond with a dog that was already growling at me quite a bit and then bit me repeatedly.

I don't get this 'human error' thing- humans are not going to behave perfectly, and once you require perfect handling to stop a dog biting people or being aggressive, I think you are on a hiding to nothing- it's not possible.

Some dogs are very bitey, my neighbour has one bitey dog, luckily it is a small toy dog but it has bitten every member of their immediate family in the last 7 years- the other dogs don't bite at all.

I wouldn't want to share my home with this dog, your DP is the one being growled at and bitten and therefore I would say he has to have more say in this than you- given he's expected to spend more time with it, bond with it and go to extra training/behavioural classes with it just to get it not to attack him.

Regardless of what folk say about "hierarchy training" being hugely out of date, I found using Jan Fennell's method (which is reward-based and not abusive) hugely helpful when I rehomed an outdoor-living, kennel-based Border Collie to become a family pet. She's amazing now.

It works. No-one is harmed. Gotta be worth a go?

Jeesh, if you pamper and spoil a dog as if it is a baby it will be confused imo. It is a pack animal, not a baby, treat it like your family is a pack and you and DH are the leaders. Then it will be a happy pack member, confident and assured because it has leaders to look after it and guide it. There are books and dog trainers around.

And the rules are not difficult to enforce, get some advice soon.

Poor dog, letting on your bed instead of its own cosy little dogbed is cruel imo not kind. No wonder it is confused. I am surprised the dogs home let you take it when you have so little knowledge, they are very strict round here.

It was very frustrating reading your OP and seeing the dog get all of the blame. I'm afraid I was thinking that you need the training, not the dog.

We have large breed dogs, but even if we could pick any of them up, I wouldn't, let alone drop/throw them on the floor.

Personally, I would never put a dog over a human. Sorry but what would you say if he bit a child, whether it was the child's 'fault' or not. Not to mention your DH may now not feel safe in his own home. Being bitten is quite traumatic.

... and 4 times on his legs and stomach is not 'a bite' it is an viscous attack. quite horrific really.

PLEASE stay away from pack theory, including Jan Fennel's loopy stuff. The application of these ideas will make this problem worse and as well as harming the dog's welfare it will make you more likely to get bitten.

I'm a vet and see people having similar issues all the time. With the appropriate help they are usually simple to resolve.

I also have a dog who has bitten both DH and I in the past. When he was young and we didn't understand dog behaviour he would bite if we placed him in situatins where he felt threatened. Since learning more about dogs and how they tick things have improved hugely. He hasn't bitten for around 8 years. He also much less anxious. We've now got two children and with the sam careful management I'd advise any owner to implement, there have been no problems at all.

As I mentioned up thread, get an APBC counsellor to help you. Nobody on the internet can advise you on this out. I'm really confident that with good above it absolutely can be resolved though.

This happened because you ignored the dogs stress warnings (the growling) leaving it feeling further threatened.

It has been posted already but as it is still coming up...pack theory has been completely discredited. It is the equivalent of offering baby advice from a 1950's child rearing expert now. The dog is not trying to take over the family.
Either get proper advice about reward based training and pay more attention the the dogs signals or, if you are not prepared for doing that rehome. But I think it is unfair to label the dog when human behaviour has contributed.

Summer a behaviour counsellor will take a full history including details about the severity of the bite and the precise events preceding it, and will then be able to advise on the risk the dog poses. We can't.

Hey there OP first of all I hope DH is felling better!

YANBU to give the dog another chance. Just like people dogs can change their behaviour with the right environment.

As has been mentioned dogs will always warn before they bite - this is a communication to you that the dog is uncomfortable with the situation and is feeling threatened. Scroll down this page pawsphilippines.weebly.com/behavior-and-training-my-dog-has-bitingaggressive-problems-etc-what-do-i-do.html for a quick ref guide to do body language.

I'd agree that the bite was the dog's response to you DH ignoring the dogs growl and picking the dog up. It sounds as if the dog has bonded to you and considering its rescue background, is terrified of losing you. You need to alleviate that anxiety by having consistent boundaries in place so that the dog does not feel as if other family members threaten its security with you. Do some socialisation training with the dog by rewarding it when other people approach and it behaves and it will quickly learn that other people are a good thing, not a threat. In future if you want the dog to move, call him to you with a treat rather than pick him up to move him away from you when he doesn't want to go. If the dog can be incentivised to change his behaviour he'll be relaxed and happier with all of your family rather than perceive being moved as a punishment. The APBC can help with recommending a reputable behaviourist
Good luck!

I'm sure this behaviour can be sorted out, and I agree the dog was giving a warning which was unheeded, hence the bite. It is very easy to treat small dogs like toys/babies by picking them up etc. I think this often results in small dogs being snappy, you wouldn't pick up a GSD or a Labrador, you would find other ways to get the dog to do what you wanted.
I also think it's important dogs have their own bed. I have 2 well behaved small dogs but even though they adore each other, one of them will not allow the other in her bed.
Please get advice from a trainer/behaviourist and good luck.

I sound drunk but I promise it's just my autocorrect!

Get rid of it. What if it had bitten a baby or small child visitor to your home.
I hate dogs for this very reason. You never know when the nicest dog will turn.

I hate some people for this very reason.

YABU and in my opinion this type of situation is why small dogs are so often dangerous and likely to bite..... they are allowed to get away with it.

Whatever you say, if this were a larger breed of dog and the bites had therefore been more 'serious' you would have got rid already. This dog is dangerous and needs to GO. YAB very U to put a dog before your husband. get a grip.

And I say that as the owner of 2 dogs, both rescues.

I'm afraid I'm inclined to agreed that any dog can turn at any time, but even though I'm not a dog person at all, I don't think that's what's happened here.

By all means contact a behaviour specialist/trainer - it's early days and tbh I think this particular incident was probably more down to human error than the dog being erratic/vicious. You need to have your DH's support though, it sounds like a nasty attack and I don't think you can blame him if he's not keen to pursue it.

As for someone's comment about dogs always giving a warning, that is utter cobblers. My in-laws spaniel had a great relationship with my DD for 2 years before she went to stroke him one day and he turned on her, snapping & growling/barking - he missed her face by a couple of cm at best. Needless to say the ILs defended the dog until he did it again on our next visit. He's now muzzled whenever DD is there, but 5 years later he's just done it again - DD had been in the room with him for a couple of hours, went to say goodbye to him and he turned on her. I've witnessed every incident and my DD has never provoked him and he has never given any warning signs whatsoever. I'm afraid it is possible for a dog to simply be a 'loose cannon'.

Warning signs are far more numerous and subtle than a growl. I deal with hundreds of dogs in a week and have undertaken further training in dog aggression. With support owners can usually be taught to identify these subtle signs easily.

Dogs do not "just turn". People who don't understand dog body language think they do but it simply doesn't happen.

My dad always let his puppy travel in the front seat of the car with him and spoiled him etc... to the point where the dog would get territorial and growl at his partner when she tried to sit in the same seat.

That's possibly what's happened here?

The trouble with a small dog is that they're easy for people to spoil in this way but the results can be that they think they own the place!

You have kindly given a frightened little dog sanctuary on your bed. From the dogs pov, it did not attack out of the the blue, this dog sounds very stressed, had its safe place invaded, gave plenty of warning and should never have been picked up in that situation. This alpha dog/ pack leader stuff is very outdated now but yes do set some boundaries such as not being on the bed. Maybe a crate in your room so it has a hidey hole when it is feeling stressed?
If you are both committed to this little dog then yes speak to a behaviourist. If you decide not to keep the dog then please return it to the rescue so they can work with it and find a more specialised home.
Good luck to you all.

No matter the rights/wrongs etc, I would not have a dog that MIGHT bite in my home.

Oh FFS at the 'put it down' comments. It's a Yorkie/Shiatsu cross, not a Rottweiler.

It's not pleasant but it's not much worse than being bitten by a cat. And cats bite all the time.

If this is that much of an issue get it rehomed and hopefully it will go to someone who won't get completely hysterical about a nip.