Dog had 'red mist' moment and bit DH, AIBU to think that with training this won't happen again?

[Antalya1]

We are a family with DS17 & DS20. About 4 weeks ago we got a rescue dog, he's about 2 ish and a cross between a shitsu and a yorkshire terrier we think. He's a little thing and has been an absolute joy and has brought a lovely new dynamic to our family.

As I was at home more of less for the first 3 weeks the dog has bonded with me and then next I suppose with DS20, we both have spent a lot of time playing and just generally being loving with him.
DS17 is indifferent and DH has been pretty loving also. We all take responsibility for feeding and walks.

As he was so shy and frightened when we first got him, we allowed him into our bed and he's just sort of stayed there.

When I'm working from home, he cuddles up and spends the day with me.

Over the last 10 days or so, the dog has been growling sometimes at DH, especially when DH comes near me, tries to stroke him, or DH tries to get in bed.

This evening I was sat in bed doing some work and DH came up to the bedroom, the dog started growling at DH so I told DH to pick him up and put him out of the room until he stopped. DH picked him up and the growling got much worse and the dog seemed as though he was going to bite DH, so DH dropped him, the dog sprang at DH and seemed to have a 'red mist' moment, jumping up and bit him, breaking the skin 4 times on his legs and stomach.

We were all really shocked. DH is OK and has been to be checked out but is really shaken and upset and talking about getting rid of the dog.

I'm devasteted, first that the dog who is incredibly loving mostly would do this to DH and also really frightened that DH will insist that we take the dog to a dog and cats home.

I've been in tears tonight thinking about this but I know that if there's a chance that he would do this again then there would be no choice. I've persuaded DH to wait until I can get in touch with a dog behavioural expert tomorrow and I'm pinning my hopes that there is something that they can do...AIBU to think about keeping my dog and that there is something we can do to stop this happening again?

Thank you for all your responses, I take on board all the comments and although I thought that I was acting with kindness and love, I realise that I have been totally irrisponsible and mis-guided in my approach. I had bought into the 'pack' mentality and so thought that DH taking control, i.e. showing that he was 'top dog' was the righ approach, hence my suggesting that he move him from the bed. I totally agree that it's also me that needs some training.

To answer some questions, it was 4 seperate bites and the dog comes from an advert 'free to a good home' so not from a rescue centre. We have only a very sketchy idea of his background, but we belive that we are his 3rd owners, first lady died..dog left to roam before being adopted by previous owner, they kept him for a few months but their curcumstances meant that they couldn't keep him. When he came to us he wasn't neglected.

I have a local rescue centre and will call them now.

Idk about this one. It's clear to see why the dog bit you dh, but as to whether its because he is feeling threatened or because he is being possessive over the bed/person that's very hard to judge without seeing face to face.
At the end of the day I think it has to be your husbands decision, as he is the one who has been attacked (and it was an attack, one bite is one thing, 4 bites is quite different I think) I certainly wouldn't be happy having to tread on eggshells in my own home for fear of pissing off the dog.
As others have said, if you decide to keep the dog, it is your family's responsibility to ensure that his issues are dealt with so that he is not a danger to anyone, I wouldn't take him back to the rescue centre unless you are 101% confident that he will either get the help he needs or be put to sleep. Those bites may be a painful inconvenience for a grown man but to a young child unable to fight the dog off it could have been fatal.
If you don't trust the rescue to deal with it properly, and you can't keep him yourself, then I would have him put to sleep as he's just too dangerous in his current state to risk.

I am astounded at your lack of concern for your poor dh!! I love dogs-our family had the same dog for 17 years but at the end of the day its an animal and humans must come first.

I would seek some advice from a vet/behavouralist but if the dog ever bites again then pts.

I'm not a dog person, but a horsy person, but even to me, this dog sounds spoilt and as if it needs proper boundaries and firmer training. You aren't doing it any favours in letting it "snuggle up to you" - its not a cuddly toy but a dog, which needs trained in how you want it to behave. You are sending it mixed messages and it is interpreting them in its dog's mind the only way it knows how. Its going to end up being passed from home to home and then pts if you don't train it properly.

There are some people who treat horses like this and those horses tend to be the ones which bite and barge, etc - very hard to cure this once they have been ruined by people treating them like cuddly toy substitutes.

"When he came to us he wasn't neglected."

In a way, he had been neglected, he had lacked stability and bounderies, as well as the correct socialisation needed to fit into the family that he would grow up in (not his fault, or yours).

What he has needed to live in a stress free way, with people hasn't been given to him, it is neglect, Vets see a lot of it, but people think they are being kind to the dog. (Again nothing to do with you).

That is what you need to put back into him.

I agree with what has been said about him having his own place to sleep and knowing his place within your family.

I don't think that under the circumstances this bite should mean he be PTS, as you say, you both have handled it wrongly, I would start to watch the dog programmes that explain and correct dog behaviour, as well as researching.

I am astounded at your lack of concern for your poor dh!!
I don't know where you get that from. The OP sounded concerned about him to me. But she's also concerned about this poor little dog who has evidently had a difficult life so far, and she's trying to do her best for the whole family.

Unfortunately 'free to good home' often comes at a price - I don't think the OP needs lectures at this point (though I'm sure someone will take it upon themselves to deliver one) - but anyone else reading this thread, this is one of the reasons for rehoming from a reputable rescue centre not from an ad.

It absolutely is a pack issue.
Boundaries, boundaries. Dog does not sleep on bed, he does not go on furniture. You eat first dog eats second. He has to know his place in the hierarchy and he's not top dog. Give him structure give him boundaries and some good basic training and I think he'll come round.

@ walter it could have been worse I suppose!!

Is the dog IN BED when he growls at your dh?

I am no dogowner, but I have an interest in wolves.... If you have let the dog into bed with you, he has been given the same pecking order in the family as you and your dh, and as such is trying to establish his superiority over dh.

That pack stuff ... lots of us have well-adjusted dogs who get on sofas and beds. Its the same as with kids - its not about knowing the 'place in the hierarchy', its about knowing the house rules.

Neglect isn't just a lack of food/warmth/exercise. It's also a lack of socialisation, of being taught how to behave and interact with people, and other dogs.

You've taken a very stressed little dog, and he WILL be stressed; he's still in unknown territory as far as he's concerned, you've only had him 4 weeks, and placed him in a situation where he has had to get to know 4 adults in a very short time. He needs love, gentleness, and reassurance most of all now. You won't really know what happened to him previously, so it's best to assume that he's not had a great life up until now.

He gave you and your DH a LOT of warning, and you did the worst thing possible by getting your DH (the threat) to pick him up (making him feel defenceless).

Can I suggest you get him a crate, and crate train him. Don't shut him in, just put his bedding in there, and toys. Cover it with a blanket, and turn it into his den, his safe place. He will learn pretty quickly to go there if he is feeling insecure or threatened. Do not disturb him if he is in his crate, and make that a hard and fast rule for everyone. Make an appointment with an APBC therapist, and run like the wind if anyone suggests pack leader based training.

He needs space and time to learn to settle in with you, and to trust you. Four weeks is nothing in a dog's life, and as you said, he was shy and frightened when you first got him. He will still be shy and frightened, but he's hiding it now, as it makes him vulnerable.

Why is it ok for dogs to bite adults and not children?

If this thread was about a dog that had bitten a child four times there would be uproar.

I know adults are far more able to defend themselves and risks of serious injury are much lower than with children, but dogs don't differentiate between adults and children. Surely any dog who will bite an adult will be just as happy to bite a child??

I would get rid. Unless you want a really time consuming, really worrying, hard work pet. In which case go ahead. There are much nicer dogs out there who will love you and not bite you.

Dogs last ten years plus and cost thousands of pounds to keep. Get one that isn't broken and enjoy it.

Mil spends her life recueing and training mentally disturbed and aggressive or highly nervous dogs. It is what she likes to do. The dogs are improved but never as nice as dogs who have never had any problems (in my opinion).

This is why I will never, ever, ever get a dog.

What a MINEFIELD

Poor dog
poor DH

I have enough trouble with family dynamics without adding a hound. I wish you luck whatever you do, it sounds crazy hard work x

Absolutely what Errol says.... not about pack about knowing the rules. Knowing basic commands. Does he know the word 'no'. It's the most important word he needs to know. The only thing I take from the pack theory is the importance of rules, consistency & training. Read john Bradhsaws 'in defence of dogs'. I let my dog on furniture & in my bed, he snuggles up to me all day. He has never growled or shown any kind of aggression to anyone who has not warranted it(some boys beating another boy up got barked at).

Each dog is different..... Do a lot of your own research & talk to a behaviourist as suggested here. Google is a mine of informations & there are some great dog forums out there with professional dog trainers/behaviourists & plain old experienced dog owners willing to give help. You really do need to educate yourself about dogs - their lives are in your hands, you have taken on the responsibility of this life so the least you can do is ensure you a helping him in the best possible way. It sounds to me you truly want to help him. I wish you the best of luck. Dogs are companions to be enjoyed & loved, not kept at arms distance & lorded over. Keep snuggling! :-)

I haven't read all of the above posts but just wanted to say that we went through a similar thing when we first got our Jack Russell Terrier 7 years ago. He was a re-home but not from a rescue centre. He was from a lovely family who simply couldn't cope with 3 young children and 2 dogs. As far as we were told, there were no issues with aggression. However, the first few weeks were hellish as our JRT tried to establish himself in the hierarchy and adjust to his new life. Terriers are well known as social climbers and he clearly was aiming to be top dog. He would growl at me as I went to put his harness on (the bit behind their head, between their shoulders if you will, is a 'power' spot for dogs and putting the harness on meant touching that spot) but he never bit me or DH, but would give us a sort of pretend nip to warn us off. But through puppy training (he was 8 months at the time), we managed to tackle the aggression and he's now a big softie. Don't get me wrong, I think terriers always have the capacity to growl and bite if they are provoked (our dog bites the hoover for example, but only when it's travelling in his direction!), but we worked through it and stuck with him. Good luck!

As others have pointed out & I'll point out again. Your dog WARNED you, you IGNORED him so he did what he felt he had to do to be listened to/ to protect himself. Why should he be punished for the mistakes of his adopted 'parents'. Learn to understand & listen to your dog & you will have a great life together. Why have a life potentially ruined at best or worse ended because of a mistake that could have been avoided?

Completely agree Spider7. It's a learning process for both of you. I'd never owned a dog before we got our re-home and had no clue about discipline, rules etc.. But you can do this and have a great life with your dog. Just learn to read the signs...

So as long as dogs growl before they attack that makes it ok??

I wonder if the dogs who attacked/killed children all gave the 'I'm now justified for my actions' obligatory growl before doing "what they felt necessary to defend themselves" ......

I honestly can't believe how many people are saying it isn't an issue that he bit a person four times and that it is the persons own fault that it happened anyway.

Surely a dog that bites is a dangerous dog?
It could easily be a child next time.

Dogs last ten years plus and cost thousands of pounds to keep. Get one that isn't broken and enjoy it.

Or you could carry on treating it as a living creature rather than some sort of robot.

This dog isn't 'broken', he's nervous and confused.

It could easily be a child next time.
Not really, now the OP knows there's an issue (no-one is saying 'it isn't an issue that the dog has bitten her DH) and given that there are no children in her household. Out and about, its not hard to avoid interaction between a small dog and children.

If she had small kids the advice would probably be rather different.

if she had small kids the advice would probably be rather different

My point entirely.

But why should it be?

I stand by my argument - a dog that bites is dangerous and so whether it is biting adults or children is irrelevant. Just because in this case it is an adult it doesn't mean that the severity of the issue should be minimised and that the dog be allowed to have excuses made for it.

I thought it was Law that dogs who bite should be put down?? I am more than happy to be corrected on this though as I genuinely don't know all the ins and outs about such a grey topic.

If I was the DH I would absolutely refuse to have the dog in the house.

Fluffaducks post on page one is correct. The pack animal mentality needs respect, dog needs to learn that he is at the bottom of the pack and DH is at the top. He is treating you like his underdog and 'protecting' you from DH.

But why should it be?
Because her DH is an adult who can make a rational decision for himself whether the dog is a real danger to him - the general consensus is that its mostly his call. Grown ups choose to do all manner of potentially dangerous things. Or not - if the OP's DH feels as you do then the dog will presumably be rehomed.

I thought it was Law that dogs who bite should be put down??
No, it's not.

There is such a difference between a nip and four full on bites. I'm sorry but I wouldn't want to have an animal in my house that bit like that four times.

I also don't get this 'well it growled first' thing- as I said in my last post, people can't behave perfectly around a dog and be constantly watching it for signs of aggression- what if the TV was on and you didn't hear the growl, what if you were distracted? For goodness sake, it launched himself and bit four times in different places on the body, not once and not as a warning.

Even if you were perfectly behaved, my guess is that it will bite again. You can decide if you still love the dog- like my neighbours who just accept their little chihuahua is a biter, will always bit when threatened (very nervous little chap) and keep it away from children, or you can decide it's not the way you want to live.