I need to find somewhere I can talk openly about not loving one of my children

[gah]

I am not a mumsnet poster but thought someone here might know of a forum that exists 'somewhere' for people to talk about this.

My oldest child is going to be 5 soon and I feel the time has come to try and talk about this with others but I don't feel I can do it in a 'normal' forum.

I feel so utterly utterly isolated to have such a terrible secret that cannot even be shared with my partner or closest friends.

The burden of feeling like this is imense and I need an outlet.

Gah, I didn't know the Tavistock specifically treated this but if you don't feel the Oxpip counsellor meets your needs (sometimes you have to try more than one person, as a lot of the benefit of therapy is dependent on trusting the therapist, I think) then they're world renowned. Definitely a fantastic option.

I didn't want to get into my own stuff earlier because I wanted to focus on the info, but for what it's worth, I actually only had that info because I didn't love my own son till he was 10 months. Between 2 - 8 months or so, there were times I genuinely hated him. I had hardly any of your challenges, either, just a ferociously difficult feeding relationship. He had serious problems with his tongue, that made breast feeding like having your nipple slammed in a door - a door fitted with razor blades. I was continually told I was almost there, and not to give up, until a specialist NHS clinic spotted that he had a problem that wouldn't allow him to feed without pain for me - ever. He was almost 4 months at the time, and my supply so established by pumping that I just felt obligated to continue until he was 7 months, so I hear you on that element at least, and how horribly an awful feeding relationship can affect your feelings for the little vampire at the boob. I once (completely deliberately ) let my breast flop over his nose while he was feeding because it was so excruciating, and I couldn't face prising his clamped jaws apart yet again against his fighting me to stay on (he was chewing the milk out rather than sucking, and nobody twigged until that specialist clinic). His terrified and heartbroken sobs as this life-sustaining boob suddenly tried to smother him will stay with me for the rest of my life. I don't think I have ever hated myself more. And lurking on the occasional thread here from people worrying that they didn't love their own child yet, being reassured by others who also took quite a long while to start, sustained me in hope, really. There will undoubtedly be people reading this feeling the same, although they never comment, if I'm any guide. Maybe someone needs to write that "Help me, I hate my baby!" book, hey.

I started researching the clinics I recommended because I was planning to use them myself (hence the child's ages being lower than yours), although Tess is a friend, so wouldn't have been appropriate for me. And then, as it transpired, as soon as I stopped feeding him the resentment receded and the love began to seed itself, and then grow. In many ways I was lucky - he was born a very chilled, calm, happy little boy and has remained that way, and I asked my Mum to move in and ensure that he never saw me when I was at my lowest, so I never really lost it before being able to hand him over to her so I could punch pillows/doors/walls out of eye-and-earshot. That meant that once I stopped feeding him it was easy to replace that anger and detachment with happy and positive interaction, and that in turn meant I was able to start loving him. You've had issue heaped on issue, none of which you had control over, and your son was and is just a more fractious child, too. Some just are that way and therefore harder to love, even when born in optimal circumstances - I have friends whose babies by any objective standards are very difficult ones, and it's really damn lucky they were born to mums who apparently worshipped them from birth. I think I would have found it really hard to build that bond with my timescale if my son had been like that, and I'd 100% have required outside help.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I would well have been you, if I'd had a tricker child, no mum moving in, and more initial setbacks than just the feeding horrors. I've only loved him properly 3 months, and already I can't imagine not loving him. And yet this love is so very glaringly a product of circumstance. When circumstances were horrible, and all I associated him with was extreme physical pain and failure, I couldn't bond. In a sense that has now killed my guilt over not bonding earlier, because, in retrospect, it seems so very obvious and logical as to why I didn't. In your circumstances I would absolutely and no question have been where you are now, only very likely without the courage to admit to it and find solutions as you are. If I hadn't known Tess I wouldn't have known where to start looking.

Obviously everyone is different, but I really hope that the range of women here talking about their own struggles to feel as they want to for their children will reinforce what your GP has told you - that you aren't alone, that what happened between you and your son is understandable and even in fact natural. And that it can be resolved, given the intelligent, determined and honest effort you are so plainly devoting to it.

You've both been so very unlucky, and you've had such a horrible time of it. I am so, so hoping that your courage and efforts are repaid tenfold and you can build the relationship with your son you so want and need to have.

Sorry this post is so long - now you know why I wanted to wait until you sounded a bit further into the process before swamping you like this!

Gah, I would hazard to say you do love your son. Why else are you trying so hard to sort out your emotional problems surrounding him.

I had similar problems with my dear ds1: his arrival was a terrible shock, he cried a lot, I felt I couldn't cope and was a terrible mother, feeding him was a nightmare etc. I sank into a terrible depression and found myself avoiding him at times and passing on his care to my H when i could

I have been in therapy for a good 2 years now and this is one of the issues we have dealt with. I think you will find therapy really helpful.

There is also a great book by Roszika Parkes entitled 'Torn in Two' on maternal ambivalence- the coexistence of love and hate for a child- which really helped me deal with my feelings.

I realise now that I have always loved ds1 as much as I do now. I just couldn't deal with my other feelings about him as I hated myself for having them. I know now that his being 'difficult' was not his fault or mine. Our relationship has improved a thousandfold and he is a really lovely little boy.

I do think that perhaps the concept of maternal ambivalence and therapy which deals with it will help you to realise that you are not alone in these horrible feelings.

Gah

I read your op and it rang so many bells for me. You really aren't the only one.

I felt detached from ds until he was 2 years old. My problems weren't as bad as yours but I was separated from ds at birth because I needed surgery and we had 5 days in hospital with ds on antibiotics for something he turned out not to have in the end. Then when ds was 10 weeks old dh and I moved to the US for 6 months - miles away from the friends and family who might have provided me with some support.

DS cried constantly and didn't sleep through regularly until he was 18 months old. he never slept more then 2-3 hours at a time until he was over a year old.

I remember begging dh to take ds away and not bring him back when he was about 4 weeks old.

Despite breastfeeding for nearly two years, it was always a fraught process for us. I also clung to this as a way of proving I was a good mother despite how I felt. I am ashamed to say I screamed at ds to "shut up" much more than once when he was a baby.

Now ds (who is 5 next week) is the light of my life.

I only have ds and in many ways the fact that I had no other chance to get this right made me spend the time with ds that was so badly needed for us to bond. It was very hard and required a great deal of work. I,m really not sure that if I had had another child with whom I had bonded more easily that I would have been able to spend the time and energy I needed to without a lot more help.

I too recognise the intense absolute rage you describe and felt that towards ds

I have longed for another child for ages but I often console myself with the fact that for all my desire to have another child (too late for me now) and to give ds a sibling, if I had done so my relationship with ds would not have been possible for me to save without medical help. I just wouldn't have had the time or energy for it on my own.

You are doing the right thing getting help and I wish you the very best of luck

i'm really heartened to see other people come forward with their own stories, gah, i hope it helps you to see that you're not on your own.
i have been thinking about you today, and the fact that you said you'd expected to get a stoning on here for expressing what you did.

the fact, however, that your admission has not been met with any negativity, is imo testament to the fact that far from being something that never happens, it is something that to a much lesser degree most of us have all felt at some time.
i believe i've always loved my children (although it's not something i've had to look too deeply into) but there have certainly been times when i Just Wanted Them OFF Me, or when i've looked at them and thought 'i don't know who you are, or how to help you'. my rotten breastfeeding record, a preemie second dd, these are pretty ordinary experiences, but looking back they are those little touches of poison that had we been less fortunate or well supported, could have festered and grown to become something else.

certainly with mine i never had that 'oh my GOD' rush of bonding that people speak of, more an 'oh, hello, who are you?'.
you had a fucking terrible run of it, i swear to god. most of us would've had our heads in the oven. i realise i've blethered here, for which i apologise, but i just wanted to say that perhaps the reason that you've been met with a more positive response than you anticipated is that we may feel 'there but for the grace of god'.

it makes me sad that so many of us can feel this way. i will not post my story as there are enough here for you to see that you are not alone.
i suffered with pnd and have just come out the other side its a nasty nasty thing and its been with me for 4 yrs

i just want to say good luck to you and i hope that you get all the help you rightly deserve

perfectstorm I just wanted to say what fantastic support you given, and I really admire you for persevering with feeding your son, really good for you.
Gah, I hope that things start to improve for you and your family, you are in my thoughts.

Totally agree with Aitch - many of us can identify with Gah on some level.

Hi Gah, just to let you know I'm still here and still supporting you.

Am really glad you have started the ball rolling...let's hope this thread keeps the momentum going and we will be here when you tell us that you do love your little boy.

I'm sure the AD's will be a positive step. I have no personal experience of PND but understand how devastating depression can be and how it can give you a very altered view of reality.

Thanks to everyone who has shared difficult and personal stories. I think Aitch is so right that we all have these moments to a greater or lesser degree, so although it is not the same it enables us to have some empathy and insight into how it can happen and that it does happen and that you are NOT ALONE IN THIS.

Maybe the 'Help me, I hate my baby' should be the next MN book

Hi gah,

You write that your husband has "..an even stronger bond because he had to do a lot of compensating in the early days as I was falling apart..."

Could it be that you have an un-realised trauma of post-natal depression? One of many symptoms of post natal depression is lack of feeling for your child. If you have never dealt with it - if it is so - because you were not aware, then this might be the root of your problem.

Glad you are starting to let it out, it is important. People will be able to help, there are many ways to approach this but it will get better now you are asking for help. Take little steps and do not expect it all to be solved over night, but relish every step closer you get to understanding and resolving this hurt.

Does you ds have any bonding/attachment issues, is he different to other children? The reason I ask is I really struggled to bond with my ds1 and when ds2 and ds3 came along it became more obvious to me how it should of been. As ds1 has got older I have come to think he is dyspraxic (just in the process of getting him SENCO'd). He is different to other children and while my dh has a good bond with him he is probably the only one as ds1 just does not seam to attach in the same way as our other boys do.

Thank you to everyone, whether it be general support or in depth stories, not feeling alone has been a much needed gift.

Y'know there are two things particularly that have struck a chord and both of them really seem so obvious now they have been pointed out.

The first is that son 1 is mirroring my behaviour to him onto son 2. That is like a real 'doh' moment. He gets an awful lot of negativity from me - he turns round and passes it on. I will be monitoring how he behaves more carefully and see that as the cue for how I need to change towards him. They are just our sponges afterall as well being born with a certain temperament.

The second thing which has made me immediately be kinder and gentler with myself is the idea from ivanadk that I was in the grip of PND almost straight away from birth. The fact that this went untreated (and not admitted) for 18months would have compounded the problem enormously.

I have always been a bit dismissive internally about the whole idea of PND because I felt that it was simply 'not coping' but when I look back at some of my behaviours now, with an honest eye, I was quite simply out of my mind!!

I was so ashamed of being diagnosed with PND at the time that I did not tell my husband for six months afterwards - totally out of character. I have been thinking more that I need not just to accept that there is a problem now but really look deeply back to the time from when he was born and see that there IS light at the end of the tunnel. He is not a monster and he can only reflect out to the world what he is given.

I felt a pang of jealousy when I read of stories where some of you had taken months to feel that bond, and I am in the 'years' category, but on the other hand I need to stop writing off both our lives - this is something that can change.

I did something today that I cannot remember doing before which is simply trying to look at my son as a human being and only looking for positives. I went out of my way to be kind to him and me today and it was a revelation.

I have also ordered the book that was recommended by agingoth 'torn in two' and will read that with interest.

Perfectstorm, thank you for your story and your thoughtful words from the start of this.

carrieboo in answer to your question, autism sspectrum was something that was considered when he was younger but a lot of his social issues have ironed out as he has got older. He still is rather different from other children in many ways, but I don't think that is the answer. He has always been terribly articulate, wordy and precise and I think that this way of being is not entirely compatible with talking to children of his own age (his teacher says he is by far the most confident in his class with older children and adults).

So many interesting things to think about at the moment. We are going on holiday next week (no lectures about term time hols please!!) and both my husband and I are going to attack this. We WILL have a happy family LOL.

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Okay, you finally had me in tears along with the rest! It is so, so lovely to see you lay off yourself a bit, and to hear some hope in your tone.

You'd have been very lucky indeed not to develop severe PND with all the crap thrown your way, and failure to bond is listed as a major symptom. And yet here you are, still so determined to create that bond with him, and now you're already developing some really good, hopeful strategies to help you do exactly that. So,so many people would have sunk into resentful, antipathetic lethargy. You aren't doing that at all - you're fighting to sort it out, and you've risked real rejection and hurt in several places - here, with your husband, your gp, a therapist - to do that. For what it's worth I think that your little boy is lucky to have you, despite being unlucky to have had you suffer so much in his earliest months and years, because of this refusal to give up, and willingness to face so much to achieve change. I'm not exaggerating when I say I am not at all sure I'd have had what it took - feeling that way was very, very draining, even just for a few months - and you sounded drained in your earlier posts, but still wanted to find ways through this.

I hope you have a really lovely holiday (no lectures here, I think your family situation is vastly the priority) and come back feeling just as positive, and newly refreshed. And thanks so much for the update - been thinking about you so much over the past couple of days.

Gah, your post was really lovely and you have touched a deep deep chord somewhere inside me.

i have posted before and even though i don't have anything particularly relevant to contribute, if it's ok i'll keep posting just short messages to let you know i am on your side and i think you are amazing.

i think what you describes happens a lot, actually, and on various levels. most of it goes unreported and unacknowledged.

the road ahead may be long and at times difficult but you've started on it and that's the hardest step.

have a lovely holiday. we are here if you need us.

It's great that you are feeling more optimistic about the future Glad you are cutting yourself some slack now - much deserved. Hope you have a lovely holiday By the way, your ds1 sounds very bright and your description of him reminds me a lot of my bf ds. He is very wordy, has been able to converse with adults from a very young age, does not relate well to children his own age, does not "conform" at school - does his own thing, is very demanding and she finds him very irritating. Just thought it worth mentioning because when you get the bond established with ds1 it doesn't mean you will love everything about him My ds talks non-stop and I find it very draining. Otoh he is a very kind, charismatic little boy and enchants everyone When you come out the other side you will delight in finding positive qualities in your ds and not feel so guilty about disliking the negatives.

ladylush that does sound familiar.

Other people find his chit-chat, observations and questions utterly charming (not untypically a man behind us at the supermarket wanted to buy him some sweets as he had "made my day with his lovely conversation"). It is not quite so charming when it is incessant for 13 hours a day haha!

Pithounette, thanks so much for sharing your story...

Yes my ds says hello to absolutely everyone from the elderly neighbours across the roads (he knows all the neighbours names) to kids at the school - the kids rarely say hello back so am thinking maybe it is not that common for a 5yr old to be like this. When he was a baby he wouldn't sleep and the only time he didn't cry was when I took him out to cafes etc when he would stare at other people for ages. My mum said he has always been imperious but she means it in a good way - she adores him. How touching that the man in the supermarket wanted to buy your ds sweets He obviously does have a charming side

good going, gah, have a lovely break.

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Hi

I work in a post affiliated to Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services. My role relates to the diagnosis of Autism. A huge amount of children are referred to our service and only a small number meet the criteria for Autism - however, we do a lot of indepth case history taking with parents who are concerned about their child's development and interaction with peers and, trust me, there are a LOT of parents out there with ambivalent feelings towards their children. A good deal of the time this is related to PND but sometimes, parents simply struggle to have that feeling of love. Sometimes it relates to unresolved feelings towards another family member that the baby looks like or takes after in temperament. Sometimes it relates to deep-rooted issues within the parent e.g. abuse/not feeling loved themselves/capable of love. It is such a taboo but not at all as unusual as you would believe, and it can affect both men and women. I've met parents who said they just knew the second they saw their baby that they didn't like that baby.
The important thing to remember is that you do care for your child - you ensure that your child is fed, watered and clothed and you feel badly that you don't feel these feelings of love. You are not a monster. Also, the fact that this happened with dc1 and not 2 suggests a physiological/hormonal component to what has happened to you, which probably means it was never in your control to begin with.
I hope you get the help you need - it sounds like you are well on your way. Take care.

Gah - like many have said your post also had me in tears.

Keep going, be kind to yourself, be kind to your son and try to look forward in a positive way, do not dwell on feelings from the past that make you feel guilty or sad.

I too had a period of time when I did not love my DC2, he was a lovely baby, but a really difficult child once he started moving about. He made me cross, sad, mad and I did not deal with it well.

It did turn out that he has ASD and once I had a reason for the way he was, it enabled me to understand him better. I changed the way I interacted with him, I expected less, helped more, shouted less, cuddled more, I went to get pains to not loose my head and keep calm, I tried to give him more opportunity to succeed and slowly, slowly, our life became smoother.

I had a lot of help and support and the chance to talk with others who were in the same place, I did not know about MN or I would have come here.

I now love my DC so much, he is just the sweetest, kindest child, he is so special to me. I sometime wake at night feeling guilty for not loving him when he was small, I just hope that he does not have too many lasting memories of that time.

Sometimes I think I needed to go through the difficult times to understand what is needed, I think we often expect to just be able to parent our children by natural instinct, but we are not always equiped to do so.

Keep talking, and I am sure you will come out of this in a positive way

Have a good holiday gah. I'm still here to listen when you get back.

hello love, are you back? please don't feel that you have to report a mahoosive turnaround after your holiday... we've all been on holiday with our kids, even the easiest ones turn the annoying button up to 11 ime.

Thank you for thinking of me, it is so properly touching.

Well, who was it that suggested 'torn in two' by Rozsika Parker.

What a revelation this was. It arrived and came with me on holiday (lush to have some sunshine by the way!)

I actually found it faintly annoying that I have been harbouring these awful feelings for so long and here she was setting out so much of what I was going through in black and white. The feeling of not being alone brought a flood of hope but also feeling slightly annoyed at myself that I could have started down this avenue before he turned FIVE. Ho hum, it took to breaking point before I could 'come out' I guess.

Since reading the book I have been having really vivid dreams about talking to Rozsika. I think because I finally thought - here is someone who could unstitch the layers and layers of issues/grief/confusion/isolation/fear/guilt/depression/angst/worry and help me find the path to loving my son.

I took the rather bold step of contacting her by email and she has responded to me and invited me to have a couple of sessions with her in London in the new year.

Can you believe that?

Strangely since I did 'come out' I have not had any of the wild rages that were becoming such an unpleasant habit. I wonder if that is because in the admission of it something was conquered or whether it is just the drugs hahaha.

I Read an article about the founder of mumsnet in the weekend papers - I had no idea what a big or established forum it was, it has certainly been an invaluable lifeline to me so far x x

gah - contributed at the v. beginning but lurking since. So glad things are looking up for you. Getting it out really helps, doesn't it.

And I don't care what the DM says, MN is wonderfully supportive......