I need to find somewhere I can talk openly about not loving one of my children

[gah]

I am not a mumsnet poster but thought someone here might know of a forum that exists 'somewhere' for people to talk about this.

My oldest child is going to be 5 soon and I feel the time has come to try and talk about this with others but I don't feel I can do it in a 'normal' forum.

I feel so utterly utterly isolated to have such a terrible secret that cannot even be shared with my partner or closest friends.

The burden of feeling like this is imense and I need an outlet.

You say that you were falling apart in the early days? There may be a level of Attachment Disorder. This will make it difficult to bond for both of you. Unfortunately, there are still many professionals who don't fully understand this so it's important to find someone who does.
Even posting on here is being pro-active and it's good that you've told your DH too. Sometimes things can become enormous when we keep them to ourselves.
I think your idea about writing everything down is very good too.
Good luck... you are not on your own in feeling this way and the fact that it bothers you is a very good start.

You are exactly right by saying that you must care about your son to be worrying about this issue. I'm so pleased you are seeking advice and support. I wonder how many mothers there are out there that feel the same way as you but daren't speak out.

Please do keep posting if you think it will help to get your thoughts out.

gah Good luck - I know when you are in the middle of something like this it seems no-one can help, but they CAN. Seeing a psychotherapist sounds like a good idea.

Please do not feel guilty. You cannot help how you feel, and feeling guilty makes it so much worse. Facing this will be the best thing you can do for yourself and your son. Glad your DH is supportive. My guess is, he does not find it nearly as shocking as you do...

Also, it's very possible that you do have symptoms of depression, which a good GP will pick up on and may be able to help - not becessarily meds , but that might help.

To be honest as I read your post the 1st thing I thought was that you ought to see you GP, and see what hes says
and the hot on that thought was prehaps a psychiatrist, who could prehaps get to the bottom of things for you.
Thinking of you

Gah - So glad that you managed to post on here and that you are getting so much support which you truly need and deserve. I think it's a good idea to write down everything that you feel (not necessarily to post on here)but at least it would be out of your head and down on paper because it sounds like you have bottled up your emotions over a very long time, which must be very very distressing for you. I'm just not sure about talking to a GP. IME they are not very good on emotional issues and don't have the time (or often the inclination) in a busy surgery to deal with this kind of emotional distress. You mentioned a psychotherapist didn't you, which I think would be a much better bet.

I think the first thing is you need to find someone in whom you can confide - and be able to release the pressure and guilt that has been building up over a long time. You need to be able to "tell it like it is" without holding back or worrying that you will shock someone. This is probably why a good counsellor is the best person. It is good that you have now "lifted the lid" about this issue with your H, but surely he must have had some idea about this. It would be surprising if he didn't. Might it be an idea to go to counselling together as it is a family problem and he needs to know exactly what is going on for you and be part of any solution doesn't he.

I always think it is so distressing when we have feelings that go against society's expectations of us. You already can think of reasons for your feelings and these need to be explored and dealt with and in time you will I am sure find a better way forward.

Sending you good wishes

Gah - hope it goes alright for you today. Still here if you want to come back and talk to us.

Gah - there's a clinic in Oxford specifically for mothers of under-twos who aren't bonding; I appreciate your son is older, but the staff should be able to recommend someone local to you who also specialises in this area. The're called OXPIP, and the contact info is here.

That clinic exists precisely because there are decent, good people like you who desperately want to do the best for their kids, but the normal hormonal processes of bonding aren't happening. You're no more to blame than you would be for morning sickness or sore boobs when your period is due. He's also had his father providing adoring love when he's home, which is as much as plenty of kids of single mothers who have to work get - and as one of them now grown, I can assure you I didn't suffer!

This can be helped, and I just wanted to say how brave and strong you are to even acknowledge feeling like this and seek help. The fact you're willing to is the best evidence possible that your son has a good mother. Love isn't under your control - conscientious responsibility, and seeking out solutions, is.

Hi Gah- just wanted to say that I'm so glad you finally told your DH- that must be a relief in itself.

I have a very different relationship with my middle daughter- she is the most demanding out of the three, she screams a lot and is very stubborn and sensitive and she doesn't like a lot of attention- or rather she finds it hard to cope with. As a result it was more difficult to bond with her and because she exhausts me and can REALLY wind me up it is harder with her. I do love her but it doesn't come as easily and I have to put more effort in! She is only 3!

hi gah

think that seeing a psychotherapist is a good idea. you might want to look into 'family constalation' - interesting form of therapy that may hoghlight some deeper, unrelated issues that you might be projecting onto your son subconscioussly.

i have a similar issue with my daughter - i have also a younger son who is simply easier to love...hance sometimes the feeling that i love him more.

dunno if this applies to you but my expirience is such: my daughter is quite demanding and needs an enormous amount of patience and love in order to be satisfied. i think her problem is that she is more aware than other children her age. but still, she is a child...so she needs an extra amount of love to deal with her worries.

it is good to seek help but i am not sure that it is helpful to give into the modern obsession with seeing 'anomalies' as pathology...people are all different, mothers, children - we all react to aech other in different ways.

don't give up on yourself...try to get to know your son as an autonomous human rather than your kid - love might grow from that encounter.

best of luck and light on oyur way!

just remembered - try reading 'eating children' by jill tweedie...helped me a lot!

lovely post, perfectstorm.

Thank you to all for your thoughtful responses, they really are much appreciated.
Well, I cancelled the Drs appointment for the reasons that NanaNina pointed out, but have had an initial talk to a psychotherapist on the telephone who said he has never dealt with this issue before but who was willing to meet up for an hour gratis to try and see whether he thought he could help.

Appointment booked in for next Friday morning. Very nerve wracking!

He asked me to email him BRIEFLY (his capitals not mine!!) with possible reasons so let me write it out here and I will copy it over. I am not that good with being brief to be honest, so will have to reign myself in.

Family background:
one of two children, my brother and I had a terrible relationship which we made efforts to reconcile when I was 31 (I am now 36). The efforts were rather shortlived as he bullied me terribly and left me with lots of mental scars. This bad relationship left me not considering the possibility of having children of my own as I assumed childhood was a miserable state to be in and did not want to inflict it on others.
We fought constantly and I have always had a fear that if I had my own children they would hate each other.

Pre-pregnancy:
I met my husband and we talked openly about whether or not to have children, it was certainly not a given and the way I felt was really that I probably would be ready for children 'one day' but by the time that came I would be too old to actually have them - I definitely did not feel in any way ready to have children but we decided to make that leap together. We only FINALLY made this decision one week before I found out I was (accidentally) pregnant. A bit more time for the decision to sink in properly would have helped.

I did not enjoy any aspect of pregnancy, in the later stages I got SPD and could hardly move around the house and I felt disabled and resented that feeling. Even when I was pregnant I could not look at other women who were pregnant or had children. I was in denial!
I went into labour 3-4 weeks early ( I should know that of course but like so many things I have not hung onto details) and all I remember about most of the early labour was saying again and again "I'm not ready".
I had a homebirth and was adamant that I would not go into hospital - I was rather focussed on this. 12 hours labour and he popped out he didn't have a feed and I went straight into a bath and just lay their feeling totally detached.
Here is a part that is very weird to anyone who knows anything about babies, but all I can say in my rather weak defense is that I had never even held a baby before this and I didn't have a clue what to do. Nobody mentioned to me that I had to wake him up to feed him (he was only 6lb) and we just thought he was being a 'good' baby by sleeping through. The midwife came back in the morning and he was immediately taken into SCBU for not being warm enough and not eating.
I was shellshocked, and to be there in hospital was devastating to me just the first nail in the coffin for me feeling like a terrible mother. A dr came to see me and said he wanted to give antibiotics incase of something or other and I didn't want to but I phoned my husband who basically said we should as 'what if....' so against my instinct and wishes they did it. Another nail.
They wanted to take spinal fluid to check for menangitis which again I thought was too intrusive but what could I do?
They advised me not to watch but I said I was fine, and I watched them try and fail twice putting a needle into his spine, most mothers would be in tears but I was just watching like a stone.
We spent a week in SCBU with him not being able to breastfeed and me being advised to give him formula. I refused as being able to breastfeed was the only consideration for me - that turned into a millstone and I should have let it go, but it seemed to me that the only thing I could uniquely do was to feed him and if I couldn't do that I really was a total failure.
I will never forget a Dr saying to me "I don't know what is wrong with him but he isn't normal". I think in some way that just sunk into my deeper being and has never gone. What an idiotic thing to say to a new parent eh?
When he came home it was clear that he was unhappy ALL the time, it wasn't until much later on that I realised that not all babies cry so much!
The health visitor came round and asked me "why is he crying?" I just thought "shit, I don't know, why don't I know". Another nail.
I struggled with breastfeeding so much, because of the antibiotics he had been given he got thrush in his mouth which was passed to me and then not diagnosed properly. I got that twice. I had mastitis twice. The pain was so intense, I remember being in tears just trying to get dressed as the cloth against my nipples was unbearable. I focussed on breastfeeding to an unhealthy extent and we never managed to get it right. Each and every feed was an ordeal in some way and after 6 horrible months I finally gave up.
Apart from the feeding he cried about 80% of the time he was awake. A HV referred us through to a pediatrician as "something is wrong with him" but nothing was wrong physically and they said that some babies are just 'difficult'.
I remember so clearly being up with him one night and just thinking "who the hell is this monster, he has nothing to do with me". As he got older he was referred through to a child development centre who told us basically that the scope of 'normal' is really quite big and although he was a difficult child he was, from a medical point of view, 'normal'. She said it might improve when he went to school.. he was 18months old then and it seemed like a lifetime away.
I would describe him as a fundementally unhappy creature - he came out crying, this turned into monumental tantrumming and with each new 'phase' comes fresh horrors. He is unremittingly unpleasant company and brings no joy to me at all.
His brother was born 14months later and I immediately felt 'the rush' when he was born, he was popped onto me and immediately fed. I obviously have times with him when things are difficult but I love him.
My relationship with number one is like a lovers relationship that has gone bad and everything they do just pisses you off. Everything number two does is cute and endearing, everything number one does is annoying and irritating.
I went to see a Dr at some point after number two was born and was diagnosed with PND and went onto prozaac for about 8months which seemed to lift me out of the depths I was in. I don't even know anymore whether I was depressed or am depressed, I just know I have felt frequently that I am losing my grip on handling life.
The two boys had a terrible relationship to start with (but bear in mind that number one could not form relationsips with other children, screaming when they came near him). I remember quite clearly that he did not even touch him for nearly 18months. Now, both of them talk and they will play but number one is SO negative and always putting number two down and trying to bully him. It just brings back horrible memories from my own childhood and my husband is quite sure that I am treating number one as if he were my brother.
I relish time away from him.

I have read probably 20 parenting books because I am so desperate to make it work, but within 5mins of being in his company I feel like throttling him. He makes me SO angry, I have never experienced the kind of anger I feel towards him. I honestly don't know how I haven't hurt him. I have slammed doors, punched walls, screamed very loudly and have handled him roughly at times.

He started school in September and I just love that fact that he is somewhere else for 6 hours.

I don't even like his name. My husband chose it and I conceded to please him, but it never just slips off my tongue and I don't even like saying it anymore.

This has all been rather disjointed and waffly, but I have never tried to write any of it down before.

I remember when he was about 6months old or so going into a bookshop and scouring the baby section for a book entitled "I hate my baby" I couldn't work out why amongst all these books there was nothing for people who felt like me. It was a slow discovery that nobdy felt like me. It is heartbreaking to be so very alone.

That makes very difficult reading if I am honest
I feel very sad for you and I think you probably are depressed, you sound very detached and blank about everything not just your first son, I would strongly encourage you to see your GP and take that with you

However, I feel more sadly for your little boy

god love you, what a terrible run you've had...

you are NOT alone, this is an understood problem, you must call that clinic in oxford and make sure that whichever psychotherapist you'll be speaking to can help you.

of course everyone feels sorry for your child as well, because something is broken between you. judging by the tv programmes i linked to earlier, it really is possible, with a lot of work, to mend it.

how does your dh cope with your son?

Gah, I just wanted to commend you on finding the courage to acknowledge this problem. As Maryz said, I also don't think you are alone, and that this really is a huge taboo.

I have absolutely NO expertise on this, but your situation is so heartbreaking and difficult that it has made me think. For what very, very little it is worth, here are my thoughts.

We are not responsible for our instinctive, responsive emotions any more than we are responsible for our inbuilt likes and dislikes of food, music, or any other aspect of life. Our experiences may predisposition us to feeling a certain way though, as when you are ill after eating a favourite food and then develop a strong aversion to it later. The aversion can be immense, where it ought to be a strong attraction. It isn't a conscious act of will to feel that way - the wrong way - nor is it due to a deficit in one's character, or a failure as a person. But there are surely ways to overcome these feelings, and convert them, through acknowledgemnt, and technique, and practice, and effort, and will. With the right help from people experienced in this area.

Something has gone wrong with your instinctive response to your son, and you sound devastated to admit this, and terrified that there is no remedy. But you know this: you are capable of love, you have the ability to love. The love that we feel naturally for our children is a gift, we don't usually 'earn' or work to get that emotion. You were given a gift with your second child that you were not given with your first. I wonder, and hope, that you will find that various things have happened in your life to lead you to this inability to feel the way you ought to. And I believe that you can be helped to find a way to earn or buy that gift, that emotion of 'love' through your actions and efforts to seek help.

I hope you find someone who understands your situation, and who is equipped to help you change things. My very best wishes.

I think it would be a good idea to tackle some of these issues and I applaud you for doing so.

To my untrained eye, it looks like you are projecting a lot of your feelings on to your son unconsciously. Our expectations have a strong influence on children's behaviour.E.g. your son might be negative, but you expect this and it may be self fulfilling.

Sometimes it helps to try to seperate the behaviour from the child e.g. it is behaviour you don't like,and he can be helped to change this. Rather than your son, himself who is the problem.

It is OK also to feel angry, detached, stressed about challenging pregnancies, behaviour etc etc. But after a time I think it is useful to deal with these and move on. That's where the professionals (counsellors etc) come in.

I wish you and your son lots of happy times to come.

amen, vlc.

Gah well done for being so incredibly brave. Some children are difficult to love and be with. However you do love him-otherwise you would not be feeling so dreadful about this. FWIW I have a 4 year old and a 15 month old and although I adore them both I too am very glad of those 6 hours school-and I am only at home with them 2 days/week as I work part-time. Hope things go well for you.

Oh God, you poor, poor girl. I know I'll get drummed out of MN but I have never wanted to hug a poster so much (in fact, make that "ever") before. If someone set out and tried to make it hard for you to love your child, it would be hard to better what's happened, as a plan. You know, childhood fault lines plus seriously unwell neonates sounds familiar. "Help Me Love My Baby" is an excellent series - again, it wouldn't exist if this were an uncommon, instead of taboo, subject. The mothers had something in common with one another AND you - tricky childhoods, and unwell newborns who had difficult experiences in hospital. They overcame that detachment with specialist help. You can too. Honestly, watching it might be really uplifting for you - one mother saw her own neglectful and abusive mother every time she saw her daughter, and resented her terribly. By the end of targeted therapy with her baby and herself, she loved her very much. The Anna Freud Centre were involved in making "Help Me Love My Baby". If you live near London, they can offer specialist help, treatment and care, or again, advise on someone local.

A therapist who's never heard of failure to bond may be well meaning but isn't placed to help, because it's a very well known problem with specific therapeutic treatments. You need someone who can interpret what is happening from your son's perspective to you, as well as support your own, and seeing someone who doesn't know that is a bit like seeing an orthodontist to deal with a cardiac problem. The fact he thinks failure to bond is rare is not a great first sign. I'm sure he will be able to help over your childhood memories, but they aren't the urgent part, in isolation. Your relationship with your son on a day to day basis is.

The point about OXPIP is they deal specifically with mothers struggling to bond. That's what they exist for. Mothers whose own experiences of childhood are hard; mothers whose feeding relationship has been traumatic; mothers whose babies have been ill and are tremendously demanding and difficult as a result, making them hard to love; mothers who had difficult pregnancies; mothers who are depressed. The other alternative if you're Midlands based is here. Tess Bailey-Sayer is a trained therapist for children of all ages, but starting with premature babies and their parents, because painful early experiences and associating touch with pain can cause long-term problems - and a difficult, hard to love baby. She's a family friend, so I know her well and can recommend that you call her without hesitation. She's a very warm, calm and understanding person - the sort you find yourself spilling your guts to over tea, because she's so genuinely and sympathetically interested. I honestly don't know if she could treat you herself, but she could certainly make very sound and reliable recommendations for people who could.

Please, please, please try to seek out expert assistance. Please. Love for infants is hormonal. You don't know them when they're born, and yet often feel a huge rush of hormones that make you fall in love, as you did your second. You are not responsible for your hormones. BUT they can be summoned up with the right help, and guided interaction with your child. Truly they can.

Keep us updated, if you want to? I'm sure I'm not alone in being so worried for you and how hard things are for you.

I agree with perfectstorm and was about to say go to the initial appt with this guy but if you feel he is not right for you or will not be able to help then look elsewhere. It is SO important to work with the right therapist.

I think you should get in contact with the people perfectstorm recommends anyway even just to get some information and maybe contact details for other therapists just in case.

Oh dear Gah, your story has (unusually) moved me to tears. I think it would be surprising if you didn't have some outstanding attachment issues with your history.

I don't have anything practical to add to the excellent advice from PerfectStorm and others, but I wanted to you know that you are very brave to admit this, and I hope this bravery will be rewarded with a much improved relationship in years to come.

Wonderful advice from perfectstorm - and I think her suggestion that you make sure you get someone who really understands the issues is very sound - and there seem to have been lots of good starting points across the thread. As others have said, that there are so many therapists with experience, does underline that you simply are not the only one who feels/has felt this way.

Your story is heartbreaking - I can really see that you will need help to prise all those nails back out again

And I also just wanted to add my admiration for your abilites to step back, see the patterns and attempt to move on - so many people get stuck (unsurprisingly) in these cycles - you are doing a wonderful thing - for yourself, and your family - in breaking out.

As others have said, do make that phone call to the people recommended by Perfect storm
thinking of you