Help!!!! Father demanding access in Australia

[looneymum]

Hello. I am distraught. I am newly divorced and my ex is soon to emmigrate to Australia. I have two DDs aged 7 and 5. Me and my ex do no communicate other than e-mail. My girls are reluctant to see their father although I have provided him with generous access. His emmigration has been on the cards for some time and particularly the DD1 has said she does not wish to visit him when he goes. I have told her that she does not have to if she doesn't want to. I have now received an e-mail from him, saying I am to expect a solicitors letter and that I am to let the children visit. He says that we should work together to make them visit him. This is the horror of a father who has left us with nominal maintenance and who refused to carry on paying for the private schooling he insisted they have prior to him leaving me. I am beside myself. I have no more money to pay for solicitors to fight this monster and only want the best for my children. If they were happy to go I would support it but should I just ignore their wishes and make them go? xxxx

Hi Everyone. Do you know I don't think he really wants them at all. He talks of them like some sort of business arrangement. I cannot imagine that he would get them over there then not bring them back. Still, I just don't want them to go at all. Poor DD1 was so upset when he picked them up this evening to have them for the weekend... it just breaks my heart. x

I really don't think it would be a good idea for two such young children to travel for a long period to the other side of the world without you as their main carer. They would miss you dreadfully even if their dad was lovely and he isn't. It's just not reasonable, stand firm and let him make a fuss if he wants to. If he can pay for flights and take time off to spend with his kids then he can just come here. If they don't want to go I cannot believe any court would order them to.

why can't the selfish fucker come back to the UK to visit his daughters? Did he think the whole world revolved around him when you were married to him? Nobody is forcing him to emigrate so the whole sorry mess is of his own making.

I am now troubled even further. The DDs have returned from a weekend with their father and his parents. My eldest DD has come back clutching a kangaroo and within minutes of getting back in the house said she has changed her mind and is now very excited about going on holiday to visit daddy when he goes to Australia. I have spent ages compiling an e-mail which basically says that I am perplexed as to why she has so dramatically changed her mind but that should they go, it can be only for three weeks in their summer hols and that he must personally accompany them on the outwards and return flights. I haven't sent the e-mail yet! I really just don't want them to go but want them to be happy and have fun and to allow them to have a relationship with the fucker...I mean their father... even tho I am sure he doesn't care that they will be knackered after such an enormous flight. Words of wisdom from anyone..? xxx

Do they have passports yet? If not, can you get them and keep them safe (i.e. away from your ex)

I seem to remember on another thread similar to this that passports were mentioned, you don't want him to apply for them and then whisk them out of the country when he goes for example. If you have the passports then at least he ought to be asking you for them which will give you advance notice of any plans. maybe - sorry, I don't know the ins and outs of this subject.

I also have no idea if you can flag their passports/identities to say that you don't want the father getting a second set of passports issued for him to have for the girls IYSWIM.

But definitely worth looking into sooner rather than later and also seeing if someone on MN can provide any better info!

I would also hold off for a few days on sending the email to your ex - he may have managed to work up a good sense of excitement and promised all sorts of treats and brushed over the not-so-good bits (like being away from mummy for so long, horrible long flights, etc). Given a chance to calm down and think about it and talk to your dd about why she has changed her mind, you may be able to change it back again. or at least make her more hesitant.

you're also saying you're not happy with them going - why send an email to your ex to make him happy? wait for his solicitors letter - or at the least make him stew a bit. And say that you are really not happy with them being away from you for such a long time, especially given that they still cry if they are away for just a day or two.

Could you reiterate that if they go you want to go too (at his expense of course) - just because he suggests something doesn't mean you have to agree to it (and of course he doesn't have to agree to your demands, but it puts you in a stronger position, e.g. you can negotiate down to you going until the youngest is 10 or for just the first time and you have moved a step towards compromise and he should then move a step towards you).

also could you get him to try a week with the girls in the UK before he goes - horrible for you I know but better than 3 weeks in Oz. If it goes badly then all the more reason to hold out against them going over there for 3 weeks just yet. If it goes OK then at least it will hopefully provide you with a little reassurance that they will be OK.

would also insist that it is their father that accompanies them the first time if you can't, especially if you don't feel his mum is up to it. and find out what he plans to do with them while they are there - will he be taking all the time off work - if not, who will be looking after them? And what back up plans does he have if they are poorly or he is?

finally (sorry, long post I know) is it worth playing a game with the girls about what happens if daddy thinks it would be fun to go to Australia together without telling mummy first? so that if, heaven forbid, the worst happened and he tried to do this, they would know your contact details and would try to tell an air hostess/person at the check in desk/customs officer/etc and hopefully circumvent his plans?

I'm sure plenty of others will be along with good advice in the morning...

Would he be allowed to return to I'm such a short time After emigrating? Even if just to collect an drop off?? There are rules on this I think!

Hi ZZ. Thanks so much for taking such a lot of time and effort to respond. Strangely, you have touched on most all of the things I had said in the "not yet sent" e-mail. I am wary of further probing DS1 about why she has changed her mind. We touched on it briefly last night and she just said it was going to be tons of fun... I agree with you tho and will hang fire for a while. They are due to spend the next couple of weekends with their father and as eldest DD normally cries before going, it may prompt further discussions. The longest my DDs have been away from me is for two weeks at a time. Ex normally takes them to his parents then goes to work... not actually ever looking after them himself.... similarly, when he goes to Aus, his mother with travel. I have said in my e-mail that I need assurance that should they go that they must be looked after by him and not a paid third party (as has happened in the past when he had a live in nanny!). Had also said in e-mail that he must personally collect, accompany and return the DDs. That all said, I still think they are too young to go and simply do not understand what it means to go on such a long flight and be away from mummy for a long period... it all just seems like a great big adventure to them. xxx

Thanks Tiff. I don't know what the rules are about emmigrating in March and returning in July.... I actually think he wants them for xmas 2010 which would better fit his plans..... as with everything, all about him. No chance that DDs will be away from home for xmas! Thanks for posting. x

Are you sure he is actually going and it is not all pie in the sky?

Hi
I have been through the Australian immigration process and I can tell you that if your ex partner wanted to legally move your girls to Australia he would need a court order from the UK or a statutory declaration from yourself agreeing to their move. Without permanent visas for the girls he would be unable to enrol them in school or get free medical care for them.

Regarding returning to the UK shortly after he has arrived in Australia, this will not be a problem for him. Most permanent visas have a 4 year expiry date on them. You must spend a TOTAL of 2 years out of those 4 years in Australia to become a permanent resident, so short trips back to the UK will not have any bearing on this.

A solicitor's letter is just words. Make him litigate this. It will cost him. He can't just up and emigrate and expect the children to go halfway round the world to see him, at his whim. Make him come back from OZ to visit them. If he's the jerk you describe then your DCs probably have a horrible time whenever they see him, and maybe a therapist could write a report stating that spending time with him would be detrimental to their wellbeing. They are too young to be apart from you for any length of time, in a strange country, with a person who has not cared for them. (That diary of yours will help here)

Get yourself a solicitor and don't send him anything in writing yourself about this matter. Everything should be legal and official and you should not bend over backwards at all to make it easy for him to do this to the DCs. If he presses you to hurry up and give him an answer tell him he'll be hearing from your solicitor regarding arrangements. He may well back off completely.

Ah Ladies. You are just so supportive. Thanks so much for all your posts. I have today received the threatened solicitor's letter. It is a wholly unreasonable letter with many crazy demands.... asking for the children for 7 weeks in the summer of 2010. He also says that if he gives me 4 weeks notice he should be allowed to return to the UK and see them! I just want to scream.... what about our lives!!!! There is no mention of the welfare of the children or their needs and wishes but just the musings of selfish, arrogant man who is used to getting his way. He has asked for the agreement (when one is reached) regarding the children be endorsed in a court order. I am of course all for this, but it will be on my terms! I think he will go whole hog and take this to court. I am unable to pay any more on legal representation but will, if necessary, stand in court and fight for the needs and welfare of my lovely DDs to be met. Thanks everyone for your support. xxxxxxxxx

Self-representation may well work for you. I'd also suggest you look into getting a "MacKenzie Friend" - this is someone who can help you prepare the court paperwork, advise you on ways to present your case, and even sit with you in court to assist and support you. They're not allowed to represent you in court like a solicitor can, but they can help out immensely with both knowledge of the system and advice.

The Children's Legal Centre may well be able to help point you in the right direction but, if not, try giving Families Need Fathers a call. Despite the name they will happily give advice to women plus they know a lot of MacKenzie Friends. Do ask for (and follow up) references and make sure that they have had experience in the type of case that you may be needing to pursue.

Wow Snorbs. Thx for this. I hadn't heard of a McKenzie Friend... great advice. I intend to drag out for as long as possible letting my ex know know that I am no longer being represented by my previous solicitor and should he take it to court then I will indeed go down this route.... thx again. x

Bloody hell. He will not let it lie. He has now sent a text asking for agreement or otherwise on kids coming to Aus. Was hoping I could just ignore it but cannot think of appropriate time delaying response! x

Tell him you are taking legal advice and will respond to his letter when, and only when, you have been fully apprised of your legal position.

If he's using solicitors, he cannot reasonably expect you not to (even if you're not!). Talk to CAB if you can't afford a solicitor.

Thanks Avenging Gerb. I was toying with the idea of not bothering to respond at all.... this may obviously incite him and I have no doubt with promote further and more threatening legal correspondence! x

How soon is he due to go to Australia?

And how quickly does he respond to your texts/letters etc?

Make sure you put some demands of your own in there so it is not so one sided and to give you bargaining power too. Say he wants 10 things from you - if he just put the 10 things in and then your solicitors started talking, they might negotiate down to 5 for example as a reasonable compromise. (not saying it actually would be but you see what I mean). Whereas if he wants 10 things and puts 20 demands in, even if he only gets half his demands then he is still getting everything he wants and may even get more. hope that makes sense!

Are you keeping a diary of his demands, promises, refusal to pay for things he originally wanted for the dds, unkept promises, times he has made kids unhappy or had them only to dump the childcare on others, etc? All of which hopefully will help to be evidence of his not-very-good fathering skills and all go to reduce the effectiveness of demands should it come to court...

oh and definitely try to get him to use post and not texts - postal strike might as well work in somebody's favour!

but seriously, not sure that texting is the proper medium for chasing you up about this and could be considered hassling. ask him to put everything in writing and state that you will need 1-2 weeks before you will send a response to give you time to make your legal consultations.

Hi Zip. Thx for your posts. Strangley, whilst we were going through the divorce and sorting out the finances, he took ages to respond and the whole thing took nearly two years to sort as he wouldn't propose a settlement. Now tho, he is really putting the pressure on as it seems he is due to leave for Aus by March 2010. He has changed the time he is leaving so many times (I suspect to manipulate the settlement) and even now there is no firm date.

He normally texts to advise of what time he intends to pick up at the weekend and on this occasion slipped in the question about the kids going to Aus.

I feel a little immature for not actually speaking to him face to face but he is such a bully. He has proved that he does not want a discussion but rather to tell me what he is doing.... evidenced by him just stopping paying the kids school fees!

I have kept a diary of cancelled dates etc and times that the girls have been in his care and he has not looked after them.

It has also come to me that I don't know where he lives now. When his new partner and her children went to Aus, he didn't advise of his new rental address. Also, I have no idea where he is to live when he goes to Aus..... ! Thx again. x

He sounds like a disturbed moron with a bee in his bonnet about the children because it has just occurred to him he will be living on another continent and you will have more control over the children than he will. The power game repercussions of his imminent departure are only sinking in with him now. Don't be rushed into agreeing to anything, and see if he's still talking the same game in a few weeks, or if he even goes through with the proposed emigration. You could text him back to note receipt of his text, request he communicate with you only by post or e-mail on the matter, and state you will be getting legal advice on the matter. Not knowing where he lives is just jerking you around. You should insist that you know where the children are when they are with him. Knowing this is basic safety information. It's not at all immature to not want to communicate in person with this bully, it's in fact very smart.

Okay ladies... it's me again. Ex is now "officially" threatening court action to make me let our DDs visit him in Australia for six weeks next summer. I understand he proposes they will be accompanied by his parents. I have outlined that he has not taken into consideration the upset this lengthy longhaul trip would have on them being away from me, their home, their ability to recover from the journey the impact on their schooling when they return from Aus tired and unsettled. I have suggested he come back to the UK to see them. Anyway, his response was if I don't get back to him by Friday and agree to his terms he will take me to court and he has taken advice to say he will most likely win! Help please....!!!! xx

Oh fuck him.

He almost certainly would not win - a court wouldn't order you to send them to Aus if you were unwilling.

Just ignore him. Email if you must and say v v reasonaby that you are not prepared to send them to Aus but he is more than welcome to visit them here.

Gitwizard

Hello again ladies. Ex is now "officially" threatening taking me to court to make me let him have the DDs visit him for six weeks next summer in Australia. HELP!!!!! xxxx