I'm just reading an interesting German discussion on the English obsession with forcing children to share - apparently this is wrong, wrong, wrong and even to blame for ...

[emkana]

... the recession, as forcing young children to share encourages excessive greed in adulthood.

but seriously, the German consensus is that children should not be forced to share, that they have a right to defend their things and that it's not that children must learn to share, but that children must learn to accept ownership, so as not to demand things that others have. With the argument being that adults are not expected to share their things either, so why should children?

I can kind of see where they are coming from, but for everyday life I would find it very difficult. If ds has a visitor who wants to play with eg his digger, and ds won't let him, and visiting child cries, then I feel I have to enforce that ds shares, because I feel sorry for visiting child and because I want ds to learn empathy. But German viewpoint is that at ds's age you can't expect empathy so shouldn't aim to teach it. So what do you all think?

But if that little boy has experienced "forced sharing" a lot (where his parents snatch stuff off him and tell him to share nicely) he would stay put in the car and shout at the little girl "But you have to share!"

This is what happened to my DS (2 1/2) the other day. Boy came over, snatched my son's toy car and when he demanded it back, he was told to 'share' by the snatcher boy.

Surely, you don't want to teach that sharing means that the stronger child will get everyhting he wants.

I can't follow that at all, LauraNI -teaching to share means that exact opposite-the strongest doesn't get everything he wants. In this particular case the boy had had a go and only got back in when he saw the girl wanting a turn. Reason would come first as in 'you have just had your go, let the little girl have a go then it is your turn again'. If he doesn't listen to reason then he is removed.
If my DSs had a toy that was theirs I wouldn't make them share with a sibling, and if it was really special I would suggest putting it away before visitors arrived, because you have to share with visitors.My DS used to go to a house when he was 3yrs where the DS wouldn't let him play with anything! Needless to say he never got on with the child!
If children are out at a play place or similar where the toys are all for general play, and don't belong to any of the DCs, then of course they have to take turns and share. If they won't share they have to be removed-however much they dislike it.

If he isn't removed he is able to stay in the car all afternoon while every other DC would like a go, but can't-how fair is that?!

but it is entirely possible to not do enforced sharing without it leading to snatching or hoarding.

i never make mine give up a toy to another child but that means that all the toys they're not playing with are free for anyone to take, and oviously they can't snatch them from another child as that child is 'in possession' of that toy, thus eliminating the spoilt brat 'that's miiines, give it to meeeee!' that i've witnessed in other peoples houses.

they rarely do stay playing with one toy all afternoon, they get bored and spot something else they want and wander off eventually without me saying 'put that down now, it's X's turn now'

If it is something like a bike or a car and it is the coveted toy that everyone wants I would aways say to mine-as they got on- you can have a turn but then it will be someone else's go. I would let them have a reasonable turn and then say '3 more minutes' and then it will be xxxx's turn, because there will inevitably be a DC waiting to get in (I am not talking about toys that are not highly popular). I never had a problem with this, they could see the fairness.
What I did have a problem with was my DSs waiting in line to have a go, the child having a go knowing full well that they were waiting and my DS saying 'it will be my turn soon, won't it mummy?' and being able to see that the child had no intention whatever of getting off, because his parent had never explained about fairness and treating others as you would wih to be treated.
It is a parent's job to do this IMO. If they don't it comes hard at school when you do have to consider others and take turns.

I think children need to learn to share, but also agree British have an obsession about it. British are helicopter-parents by nature. I also loath this constant running after their children making sure they say thank you and please etc. It just means British children don't remember their manners unless their parents are there to remind them. If it wasn't so enforced, children just pick it up naturally and learn to remember it by themselves.

I don't think that you should helicopter parent and I think they should work things out themselves but if you start to teach them to treat others the way they would like to be treated from the very start they will do it for themselves.

I often teach in reception classes. The ones that are an absolute joy are the ones where the DCs share and care about others. They are friendly and play together. The ones that give me a headache by the end of the day are the ones with constant bickering and whining 'xxx took my toy',xxx won't let me play' and xxx won't letme have a go'.

As they go up the school they work a lot in groups and have to co operate and have give and take. There are always some DCs that no one wants to work with and they are going to be trouble whichever group you put them with because they don't listen to others, they don't share and they want their own way.

It is so easy to teach a DC to share and it does them such a favour in life. If they can't share and take turns they are the DC that no one wants to play with, be a partner with or have in their group. Children understand fairness-they can immediately see unfairness, but they have to be encouraged to be fair themselves-some more than others.

I think it depends on the age though. In reception you would expect a child to have developed the ability to share. I think its quite normal for a 2 year-old or even 3 year-old to be a bit possesive about their possessions because they suddenly realise about "property". I let mine be a bit possesive about their property for a while and it soon blows over or they have it beaten out of them by their siblings anyway.

I think most kids are naturally quite fair, so if you ask in a dispute 'well is that fair?' and ask them what they think, they tend to do the right thing, as usually just knowing their mean behaviour has been spotted is sufficient. Unless they're little b**rds that is, in which case I wade in

FairyMum, exactly! They do all go through a very possessive phase at one point or another but if just allowed to go with it they very quickly realise that it's unecessary and decide for themselves to share, and are far better sharers because it's their own decision, not something forced upon them.

I disagree I've taught in pre-school classes and rec unbelievable as it is some kids do arrive at both simply unable to share. It's heartbreaking as these kids are the ones other kids don't want to play with.

It's not up to other children or teachers to train children into sharing it's a parents job pure and simple, the same as training a child to wipe it's bum. If they can't do it before pre-school it WILL be harder to settle in.

I obviously practice what is it "enforced sharing" (never heard of it before this thread)and have had to since my the day my kids were born as my first 2 were twins. All 3 are fantastic at sharing wether it be toys,food,tv etc. I love hearing them sort things out for themselves.

They were brilliant from a very young age. I have to say pretty much every other parent we're friendly with does the same-thank god. I've never once seen a friend of mine let their kids hog toys,food etc. I guess that's why they're our friends though.

Teaching kids to share does not teach them not to share-how ridiculous far from it. Ensuring your kids start pre-school able to share really does equip them with the skills needed socially and academically.

If a child doesn't understand that at times they need to watch others having a go on a toy or in a game they miss out as instead of enjoying a game they're getting worked up and focusing on their rage. Sharing also involves quite a few mathematical skills.

In the EYFS document which all settings adhere to children at 16-26 months are expected "to learn that some things are theirs,some are shared". If they can't do that by 3 I would imagine it would be a cause for concern.

As a childminder I would be noting it as a concern to pass on thankfully I don't need to worry as the 18 month old I mind for already has these skills and plays with the 4 and 5 year olds in my setting beautifully. I occasionally have to say "no we share with this toy" but very rarely now.

MM... but it's still possible to model sharing and encourage it in a child without having to remove a toy from the child and hand it to another.

Both my older kids are very capable of sharing, obviously my 4 year old more so than my 2 year old but he's still better at playing with others than most of his peers at toddler group who are still very much at the 'This is my toy, back off or i'll hit you' stage of development. He ends up playing with older kids who are better at playing games with other children or with the babies who he adores running around finding toys for.

In fact, they're more used to sharing in it's basic form than most kids as technically all the toys in the house are shared, except cuddlies. but i never ever take a toy that one is playing with and give it to the other... how horrible for a lo to be really enjoying a game only to have that toy snatched away from them and handed to another child.

Yes they squabble over toys, but i'd be worried if two preschoolers 18 months apart didn't tbh! but they are very capable of sharing and handing over toys voluntarily without me ever having taken a toy from one to give to the other.

I agree 100%, MilaMae-you can't let them be completely selfish at 2 or 3 years and expect them to have worked it out for themselves by 4 yrs.
I also find it heartbreaking that they are the DCs that no one wants to play with and the solution is so simple-teach your DCs to share.
I can't say that I had a problem at home PinkTulips, but I did at toddler groups where my DSs were desperate to play with something and so that became the toy that the other DC wouldn't let go of-and it wasn't their toy in the first place(it was for use by the whole group). After a fair go it was the parent's job, IMO, to make sure that they let the waiting DC have a turn -if not by reasoning then by taking it off them and handing it to the next DC. I think that this is where unconditional parenting falls down, by putting your own DC first and going with their wishes you utterly fail to take into account the poor quiet DC who won't snatch, is waiting politely and saying 'will it be my turn soon mummy?' I was left saying, through gritted teeth, 'I expect xxx will give you a turn in a minute' but thinking 'why can't the parent sort the selfish little xxx out and be fair to others rather than just their own DC.'
How would you deal with the DC whose house we went to who wouldn't let my DS play with anything? As soon as he picked something up it became the one thing the other DC wanted.He wasn't open to reason. We had to stop going. His mother should have done something about it IMO.

piesces, i've seen that behaviour at toddler groups alright but honestly i'm not lying (or wearing rose tinted glasses) when i say my kids have always been very good for handing a toy over after a fair go without prompting.

At home i think the main problem is the close age gap, they think they're the same age so dd doesn't grasp that ds1 is younger and can't do/understand things that she can and ds1 doesn't grasp that dd is bigger and is able/allowed to do things he can't. On top of that except for 3 hours a day that dd is at playschool they're constantly within 2 feet of each other, they can't seem to play independantly when the other is around so the close proximity leads to arguments. They squabble about everything not just toys ('You're a cat [ds1]'..'Nooooo, don't want to be a cat!'...'You are a cat!'...'Noooooo' [thump] 'Mooommmmeeee he hitted me!' 'You a cat [dd]'.......me: )

When we have kids around my 2 are usually fairly good at sharing their toys and we have tonnes so it's rare that the only toy a visiting child wants to play with is something that one of mine is playing with. When that happens i find 'Hey, lets all play with this toy/do this activity' distracts them and works far better than taking a toy from one to give to another.

Example of how things work.. 2 mins ago ds1 tried to run off with dd's new pencil case for school that she got yesterday. I gave it back to her and he whinged but i told him 'That's [dd]'s for school [ds1]' and dd came over of her own free will and gave him one of her new pencils. They're both drawing happily now.

As for the scenario you describe, that's exactly why 'He who holds it, owns it' works. snatching is not allowed and if a child is playing with a toy and one of mine decides they suddenly want it they're told 'No, X is playing with that, find something else'. Mine are told 'You can't play with everything at once so if your not playing with a toy then anyone can have it'. TBH, we've been in houses with stroppy kids like that and 9/10 times my dc has either shared the toy with the child of their own initiative and they've played happily together or i've steped in and distracted the other child with something (i'm not one for respecting other peoples shitty parenting if my own child is being assaulted )

My DD (14 mo) hasn't developed the territorial instinct yet and regularly holds out the toy she is playing with to other children, if they are older children they usually take it in a bemused way after as short pause as if they can't believe their luck.

I'm not looking forward to when she starts feeling that things are 'hers' although I am sure it is inevitable.

I think the discussing what your DCs are prepared to share is a good one as otherwise you could end up with a visitor with nothing to play with in the most extreme cases of not insisting on sharing. What is it teaching the child in the end - that it is possible to keep everything for yourself?

Maybe greed is a natural human emotion and we acquire/ develop it whatever happens?

My DSs have had no problem with sharing and I haven't had to 'force' them, I have just expected it from the start. It has saddened me when they share but other DCs won't and the parent doesn't make them because they don't want a tantrum. I would rather the selfish DC had a tantrum and let the quiet,reasonable little souls have a go.

They don't object if they are used to it. In school if a DC is hogging something and won't let someone else, who is waiting patiently, have a go I simply go over and say 'It is xxxs's turn' you can have another go when they have had a turn. I am very calm and quiet but my whole body language conveys that that is what is going to happen. They know it is fair and no point arguing so they have never made a fuss.

I am not going to negotiate-it is a simple matter of fairness. If it was playtime and the toy belonged to the child, then I would say that they could only have a go if xxx wanted them to because it was their toy.

Whether it is right or wrong, the simple fact is that the DC who won't share will not be liked-it is the same with the adult who won't share. It is a very basic life skill that should be taught by the parent.

Interesting thread.

Can't see the no-forced-sharing thing catching on in a big way in the UK tbh. These cultural differences run so deep. We lived in Holland before and I was quite shocked by the differences initially. I remember being at a toddler group where a little boy was holding onto a supposedly shared toy saying "It's mine, it's mine". His mother agreed, "That's right, it's yours, you hold into it." I think something about sharing would have been mentioned in this scenario in the UK.

I can see good things about being more relaxed about sharing and letting children do it in their own time, but it can definitely go too far. Where we now live (don't want to say where in case I insult someone but suffice to say the culture is extremely indulgent towards children, literally they are treated like angels) my son (age 6) has a friend who comes over with his mum and trashes everything. Last time he came he dropped ds's binoculars from the balcony and they smashed, and his mum said and did nothing. She's a lovely generous person whose philosophy, I presume, is "what's mine is yours" but I don't think that should extend to her son being able to trash my son's stuff.

Not sure whether I think sharing is learned by having to do it early in life. My 3 dc are all different in how generous/possessive they are and I've treated them all roughly the same. Having said that we know one boy who is an only child and he really finds it hard to share anything, presumably because he has little experience of it at home. It's a bit of a pain tbh - he's constantly removing things from my dc and they get fed up, understandably.

Great post KT!

I think we all agree that children learning to share is a good thing, BUT I think it's more important to teach the reason behind why we share. If the child only shares because that's what his parents expect, does he really learn empathy with others, a real desire to see other children happy?

That's why I think that it's also important to respect the child's wishes - even when he's going through a period of
hogging toys. Kids can get very attached to objects and simply overruling their wishes with convention ("but you have to share") or logic ("but you're not playing with this toy right now") will not teach them the right lesson, it'll just make them reject the whole 'sharing' project.

But let's go back to the origial question of cultural differences. In Germany there is - at least in lefty middle class circles - great emphasis on creating 'strong' children. Kids that can say 'no' and are at ease with themselves. The modern reason behind 'strong' children is to protect them from any form of abuse. But I'm sure this all comes from a desire to un-do the nazi past - a desire to create people who will not just blindly follow orders.

Thanks Laura!

Like everything it's a question of balance in the end. I do see the extreme opposite of fairness and sharing where we live now - kids are basically left to fight it out and you see strong hierarchies where smaller and weaker children are pushed around and basically bullied. When I see the way the adults behave in, for example, driving situations, nothing much seems to have changed as they have grown up. If you manage to grab the toy, or barge your car in front of mine, even if you take the side off my car in the process, good luck to you....

I don't want my kids to grow up thinking that's ok.