I'm just reading an interesting German discussion on the English obsession with forcing children to share - apparently this is wrong, wrong, wrong and even to blame for ...

[emkana]

... the recession, as forcing young children to share encourages excessive greed in adulthood.

but seriously, the German consensus is that children should not be forced to share, that they have a right to defend their things and that it's not that children must learn to share, but that children must learn to accept ownership, so as not to demand things that others have. With the argument being that adults are not expected to share their things either, so why should children?

I can kind of see where they are coming from, but for everyday life I would find it very difficult. If ds has a visitor who wants to play with eg his digger, and ds won't let him, and visiting child cries, then I feel I have to enforce that ds shares, because I feel sorry for visiting child and because I want ds to learn empathy. But German viewpoint is that at ds's age you can't expect empathy so shouldn't aim to teach it. So what do you all think?

I've put my children's lilo on top of it because it's OURS and you are not allowed to play with it.

for you, ze debate is over, Englishe schweinehundt!

(apologies to Emkana, my memory of O-level German is extremely vague...)

Sorry if I got a bit tetchy about this. I just can't bear the amount of anti-German stupidity that seems to go on at every opportunity.

Emkana, what do you think is behind the type of stuff you're talking about? Do you see it as a general cultural trait, or is it people going overboard on the "anti-authoritarian" approach or what?

Sounds entirely credible...quite like the idea as I'm sick of grannies etc. saying 'you must share!' to my almost 3 year old and worse almost 2 year old...who doesn't get the concept at all. We actually try to explain to our DCs that they have any given toy for some time, and then their sibling has a go, and then back...seems to work okay...and when they are clearly not gonna give over they find an alternative for their friend/sibling to play with ...

isn't that sharing?

Um ...yeah but not enforced!

Anyway, just incredulous that some people are concerned that there might be an underlying current of German bashing going on....oh come on!

Oh, I see. I thought that was what everybody did - that turn-taking thing. What actually is forced sharing then?

Well...when you forcibly take a toy from a crying childs hand (who really doesn't want to share)and give it to another in order that it is shared! Seems a bit cruel, but I have seen it done!

See, i wouldn't make them take turns, ever.

If ds1 wants to clutch a paticular toy car in his grubby little hands 24/7 then he can keep it and no amount of whinging from dd will change that, but if he puts it down and wanders off she can take it.

As far as i'm concerned saying to a child 'It's X's turn now, hand it over' is enforced sharing and teaches them nothing about kindness and generosity, only timekeeping

My kids quite often hand toys over to each other of their own free will, they give their favourite toys to the baby to cheer him up, they share well with friends and i'm convinced that's because they're never forced to give up toys that they're playing with.

Well, I think it's about different kids maybe. Gosh, I know lots of children who are very kind and sharing but at least one who doesn't like dd playing with anything (and not just things she is playing with). She needs some 'enforcing' (though that might be why she is such a PITA in the first place). Mind you, my enforcing tends to be a 'Right, can dd have a turn in a minute? oh THANK YOU, you are SO K+IND' bla bla

'turn-taking teaches timekeeping' . Tbh I still think it's about modelling social skills really. Most of dd's friends 'share' naturally because it's nice and how you get along.

Great debate, emkana, Danke Dir!

Yup, I agree that the Germans are more comfortable with direct confrontation
relative to the English (no, not the Brits - the English, and even more precise:
middle & upper middle class English; working class and lower middle class (Daily Mail readers)
are actually quite similar to the Germans in this respect).

My impression is that nice, middle class English parents are keen on sharing
because they can't bear the confrontational element, the fact 'a scene' is caused
makes them very uncomfortable.

Having said that, the Attachment Parenting angle is probably just as important to this debate.
Anything with 'forced' and 'authority from above' is bound to get a strong reaction
from AP types and as you say, emkana, that board is pretty hardcore -
the sleep section is called 'Carrying and Sleep' rofl!!

On this thread our presumably English AP-leaning MNers have been very vocal in their support
of the supposedly German opposition to enforced sharing, see thisisyesterday's post from Thu 18-Jun-09 14:35:19
which is almost a translation of the posts on Rabeneltern.

Personally, I fiercely agree with both camps:
Not only is sharing important, I want to teach my girls that people matter - stuff does not.
Look after relationships, not toys.
However, this must NOT be enforced because it would undermine the very value that's at stake.
How can I teach DD that people matter when I make her feel like she doesn't?

Well, our way is to get down on their level (i.e. kneel down) and engage with them.
Just use your creativity and have a chat.
We are the big grown up people, it's not that difficult
and when it works (which it will) it's a bloody fantastic feeling.
You teach them negotiation, empathy, give/take, Win-Win. And all without any force.

Orm Irian.. how old are your kids?

because only kids over 11 or over a certain height can sit in the front so i wouldn't let any of them sit up front if they were younger/shorter.

if there were a few who could legally sit up front i'd just let whoever asked first. simple.

Yup..agree DaddyJ. It is great when the little ones finally grasp the notion of sharing, and very gratifying ...but like anything it is to be learned - enforcing it defeats the object somewhat.

thank you daddyJ... exactly what i wanted to say but far more eloquent and wisely put

So in a situation where a 3 year old girl goes over to play in a car which a 3 year old boy has just got out of, but when he sees her try to get in he climbs back in and starts screaming 'mine', would you

) let them sort it out themselves

b) go over and say to little boy, that it would be nice to let little girl have a turn, then he can have a turn after, or suggest he pushes her around etc

c)let him play with it until he's bored again and try to distract little girl

Is b) 'forced sharing'

Sorry forgot the ? at the end

he got out of it... bum no longer in seat so the car is in play for anyone to take... whose bum hits the seat first, drives.

if they resort to physically fighting i'd intervene, and would generally rule in favour of he girl in this scenario as he's only getting back in it to be a nuisance, but i try not to interfere unless it gets violant.

I would hope that the boy's parent would remove him and say calmly 'you have had your turn - it is the little girl's turn'-, and then do the calm, broken record approach.

If I was the girl's parent I would just say to her 'you can have a go when he has finished' -ignore him totally, but keep an eye on it so that we could grab it once he had got bored.

I would say

"You're being rather nasty, you didn't want it anymore so move your but-now!"

If I was the adult in charge and no parents were there to sort it out I would remove the boy and say he could have another turn after the little girl. I don't agree at all with the strongest getting their own way.

I would say

"You're being rather nasty, you didn't want it anymore so move your but-now!"

Hmm - that would be my inclination too, MilaMae, but we must not label the child so instead we have to say "that was rather nasty, so move your butt now!"