I'm just reading an interesting German discussion on the English obsession with forcing children to share - apparently this is wrong, wrong, wrong and even to blame for ...

[emkana]

... the recession, as forcing young children to share encourages excessive greed in adulthood.

but seriously, the German consensus is that children should not be forced to share, that they have a right to defend their things and that it's not that children must learn to share, but that children must learn to accept ownership, so as not to demand things that others have. With the argument being that adults are not expected to share their things either, so why should children?

I can kind of see where they are coming from, but for everyday life I would find it very difficult. If ds has a visitor who wants to play with eg his digger, and ds won't let him, and visiting child cries, then I feel I have to enforce that ds shares, because I feel sorry for visiting child and because I want ds to learn empathy. But German viewpoint is that at ds's age you can't expect empathy so shouldn't aim to teach it. So what do you all think?

Ahhh, but London is a law unto itself. I'm talking about the more civilised parts of the UK

Cestlavie, I'm still stunned by your post at 14:36. I'm not a very confrontational person (although I seem to be doing quite well on this thread), but it's been on my mind all afternoon.

It's spectacularly ignorant and just offensive to imply that Germans per se do not value empathy, co-operation, social skills or understanding. Sorry, but how would you feel if your whole country were written off in that way?

And Swedes ("I think the Germans are obsessed with themselves, really. Their own health, their own wants, their own needs."), I'm sorry if all the Germans you've come across are like that. Some of the kindest people I know are German.

I can't help thinking that the OP was a bit unfortunately worded and misleading. It almost encourages the generalisations and stereotypes, which is a shame, because both the question about sharing and the national traits/tendencies business are really interesting.

Edam, I think we were saying the same thing about the English/British issue. And Paolosgirl, no-one is suggesting Scots/Welsh/N Irish don't do sharing, are they?

Actually, no-one is saying anyone doesn't do sharing. (There are just a few people who are mistakenly under the impression that Germans don't.) The question is more about when and how.

Sorry but where was my op unfortunately worded??? Just read it through and just can't see it

Where do you get this from? I can see that one German might say it, but I don't think that it is a general German thing is it?

God how much crap gets spouted about Germans. I know loads of Germans and they are all lovely, friendly, generous and courteous. I would be horrified for them to see some of the ignorant comments on this thread.

Hello emkana, sorry, it was meant as a commiseration rather than a criticism IYKWIM. But if you really want to know:

I find the tone a bit polarising - "obsession", "forcing", "wrong, wrong, wrong", "to blame" - it all sounds so extreme and doesn't really reflect the tone of the posts in the thread you linked to, as far as I could tell (just skimmed it).

Also, when I first read your post I thought you were talking about a public debate - a press article about a study or something - making some sort of semi-official proclamation about "the" German viewpoint, rather than a fairly small group of parents on an internet forum. If other people got the wrong end of the stick too - which cestlavie's unbelievable "that article is idiotic" seems to suggest - I can understand them feeling a bit under attack.

Sorry

Think I'll go off and read the link properly now...

BFQi I too thought the OP was referring to an article in print and was surprised to see that the link was to a forum.

Nonetheless, it is an interesting debate .

We have 4, the eldest is 6. They dont so much share as "take it in turns" if someone else wants a go. I dont expect them to give up their treasured possessions, they have their own things. I cant imagine having 4 children so close in age without some sharing going on.

I was an only child and never liked sharing. Im a bit like that now.

' edam on Thu 18-Jun-09 16:21:45
bloody hell ruby, that really is extreme! '

I am humming that theme tune just thinking about it.

I'm sorry I've only skimmed the thread, but while I agree with the alternative viewpoints on sharing discussed here, I think we start talking about sharing because of toddlers' tendency to snatch or grab things from other children.

So while I don't think enforced sharing is a good idea, you do have to teach children that it's not OK just to grab something if you want it, you have to ask first, even if it's your thing.

So if a visiting child has just picked up one of your toddlers' toys that they weren't playing with at the time, it's not OK for the your toddler just to snatch it back and say that's mine, surely?

Sorry if that's stating the obvious.

I'm not saying Germans aren't kind-hearted. Just that they are different - better at addressing their own needs perhaps. My MIL is German and she is very good at putting her point across and making requests. I find that tricky as I am very bad at saying no. But she is fine with no. I love her dearly, but she is different from the pussyfooting around I'm accustomed to.

For example, last Sunday we moved our car out of our main driveway to the side driveway because we had a 92 year old coming for lunch. MIL came for lunch too and drove straight into the space closest to the front door so that when the 92 year old arrived in a different car, her family had to park in the side drive - more of a walk from the main door to the house. After lunch MIL told me it was great that we had moved the car for her - I told her we were actually leaving it free for the visiting 92 year old but a German got there first.

People who object to the OP - you do realise that she is German, don't you?

(Abraid - would that be the one that involves things bouncing by any chance? )

I think if the kids have a guest over, its important to make that guest feel as welcome as possible.

they are allowed to put away special non-sharing toys. though this has never happened.

Also, I do share my stuff with guests! All the time. Craft stuff and suchlike.

I think it depends on the age also, at two I wouldn't expect sharing, by three-ish I'd be thinking .

Have always insisted on basic sharing and never had any resistance, my kids want to show their friends their stuff!

I do think its good to grow up sharing, actually-pisces, had same experience in shared accomodation, and that one has stayed with me!

Must add that all the germans i know are lovely

also think we make too much of toddlers snatching and grabbing.

Up to about 3, I think such behaviour very normal and inevitable. And hugely embarassing for british people.

It's not embarrassing if the snatcher and grabber has the toy removed from them, it's only embarassing if the snatcher gets their own way whilst the parent watches indulgently.

OP - I think this is an excellent thread. Thank you for starting it.

By edam on Thu 18-Jun-09 22:49:41
(Abraid - would that be the one that involves things bouncing by any chance? )

Am humming... (they practised near where I grew up. Or maybe it was filmed there. Or both).

Yes I am German and so I am able to tell you that the spirit of the thread in question is one which I have also encountered with real life Germans, including my SIL

I found the tone of the German thread quite condescending towards the British approach, therefore I was maybe a bit harsh in my choice of words.

Oh and Swedes, thank you

My dd was at one point told by my nephew that she was not allowed to play in his room, while her big siter was. SIL just shrugged and said it's his decision. He was 3.

So if the argument is encouraging kids to share leads to greedy spivs in the City and brings capitalism crashing down, are the Germans saying this is a bad thing?

(Racks brains for unfortunate policies of German finance and government I could attribute to not sharing but finds it sadly lacking...)

'Am humming'

Do you mind not splashing me! That one landed a bit close and wet my towel.

Now, let's move on. Where's that gym horse?