I'm just reading an interesting German discussion on the English obsession with forcing children to share - apparently this is wrong, wrong, wrong and even to blame for ...

[emkana]

... the recession, as forcing young children to share encourages excessive greed in adulthood.

but seriously, the German consensus is that children should not be forced to share, that they have a right to defend their things and that it's not that children must learn to share, but that children must learn to accept ownership, so as not to demand things that others have. With the argument being that adults are not expected to share their things either, so why should children?

I can kind of see where they are coming from, but for everyday life I would find it very difficult. If ds has a visitor who wants to play with eg his digger, and ds won't let him, and visiting child cries, then I feel I have to enforce that ds shares, because I feel sorry for visiting child and because I want ds to learn empathy. But German viewpoint is that at ds's age you can't expect empathy so shouldn't aim to teach it. So what do you all think?

My DS recently celebrated his 5th birthday. We had a party for over 40 kids (!!) and he received a lot of presents. When he opened them he'd received 2 magic colouring books that he already had 1 of - and without a moments hesitation he allocated one book to each of his DSB and DSS. It didn't appear to even cross his mind that he could have 3 books all to himself !

The darling DSB and DSS then proceeded to stuff their faces with their sweets that evening - which DS didn't have any of having already shared his 50/50 with me and DP earlier in the week - and very begrudingly gave up the smallest morsel when it was suggested that perhaps they could at least offer him a little !

We also have a lot of 'help-yourself' type meals to avoid the 'I don't like that' arguments all the time - three guesses which darlings take the biggest & best and far too much every time ?

Sharing & generosity, and the alternative of selfish & greedy is environment learnt in my experience and I swell with pride when DS is so keen to share & be kind as I consider it a reflection of my own generosity and kindness !

If a child wants to play with a toy that another child already has, then I would never dream that they would have to give it up. I go by the rule of "no snatching" and would encourage the second child to find something equally fun (even to the point of doing something that was a bit of a treat). But when DD1 is running around stressed because other children are playing with her toys then we do the "X lets you play with his toys at his house" and then try to distract her.

Comfort toys and "special" toys don't hang around in the lounge anyway, so they aren't up for grabs.

Zat is very interesting

My DD is coming up to 4 and sharing is a big deal with her and her friends. It certainly doesn't come naturally to her, or any of the other children i am around. I totally get what you say about feeling like you have to force your child to share when you have visitors/are visiting/in general. I aint gonna be sharing my seat on the putor til im good and ready, and don't even THINK about touching my wine!

My DD is quite submissive in a group of children so im not entirely sure that enforcing sharing is such a good idea. Nup, in fact, bouyed by this argument i am going to tell DD to bash the next child over the bonce who tries to take her little mermaid dolly away from her!

But that's not really sharing is it? Obviously, if someone is playing with a toy then the other child should be told to ask if she can have a go in a minute. It's when my dd goes to someone's house and gets everything she picks up snatched away from her, that it makes me . And it's pure possessiveness, because the other child can't stand the other child playing with it. I know lots of kids who can play happily together no problem so I don't buy that it is natural to be nasty.

Lucyellensmum, why don't you teach her to say, 'i'm playing with it now, you can have a look, here'. assertive not aggressive. yeuch. My 3yo dd can be v easily led but she knows how to say 'you can have it in a minute' or 'why don't you play with this instead?' (she does it a lot with her 11mth brother).

Hm, very interesting about the child eventually thinking "when will my parents stick up for me?". I can remember that my Mum would always assume my guilt and stand up for a guest (well into my childhood) and it really started to grate. Especially as I was quite laid back as a child and hardly ever started any trouble. My Mum felt that it was rude to punish another Mum's child and admitted when I was older that she knew that I was telling the truth.

Oh I stick up for dd and ds alright...

Well I live down in Bavaria and this sharing isn't relevant here as in my experience they are generally mean old buggers. "Open-wallet-blood-stone" etc. I much prefer the British attitude of not making too much fuss to the German directness. My German MiL in a restaurant is a trip, mind you family birthdays with them tend to empty the placxe fast.

My daughter is bordeline age for starting school next year at 5 and the kindergarten teacher told us to keep her back a year. in spite of her good writing and number skills she's ready- Why? Because she isn't very able to stand up for herself and say "I want this or that". So in effect she is being penalised for not being pushy German enough.

But Maninadirndl, if your DD has to operate in a German school environment, which may well be more "pushy" than a British one, isn't it sensible that she is equipped to do so? School is about more than writing and number skills, isn't it? (We are in exactly the same situation with our DS, by the way, and are tending towards waiting.)

BFQi,

The sharing thing does sometimes seem to be taken to extremes, though. If you're constantly impressing on a child that it must "share nicely" with its guests, but also expecting it to defer to its host when it's visiting someone else (which are both understandable expectations to a degree), I can imagine the child eventually starting to wonder "When is my mum/dad finally going to stick up for me?"

Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean - I remember one small boy we just stopped playing with, because mine was not allowed to touch anything in his room & he always had free rein at ours.

It was a shame because I really liked his mum, but she never did anything about it - was quite absorbed in v sweet smaller boy, I suspect this was the issue . Luckily they moved away not long after.

I would never expect DD to relinquish something she was actively playing with to a visiting child just because they demanded it. I would OTOH go out of my way to find something else for said child, and be very unimpressed with DD if she then tried to take it.

From a very early age we have taken the approach with DD that if she had and would not return some treasured possession of DS's, we would say "OK then, if you have DS's X then DS can have your " and hand something of DD's to DS.

A swap would normally be arranged within 30 seconds

I had 3 under 18 months,they learnt to share from a very early age it would have been a very unpleasant environment to grow up in otherwise. They've all had various bits of Playmobil,Lego etc that gets combined together,they understand they get more fun that way. They have 1 or 2 special toys that they instinctively know aren't up for grabs eg cuddle toys etc

None of my 3 are pushovers at all,all 3 stand their own corner very well. They use a variety of means one uses humour,one is quietly firm one is very vocal

It was quite noticeable at toddler groups as they always played very nicely,never snatched. They are normal kids who can squabble as good as the rest but they do share well and I'm proud of that.

It's just normal sensible rules involving waiting for turns and playing 'together',we don't take it to excess. It's nice to think of others if the twins have been to a party and dd hasn't I'd encourage them to share their sweets and they'd be happy to to a degree. Pigging out and scoffing the whole lot in front of her is just mean and not something I'd be proud of. I wouldn't pig a cake in front of a friend and not share.

The Germans can keep there observations as far as I'm concerned. My cousin had a German mother and he was a spoilt brat(still is).

Not sharing toys,food etc is just horrible anti social behaviour. As a teacher I have to say the kind kids who shared things well were always the most popular.Kids aren't daft, who wants to play with somebody that hoards everything for his/herself? I wouldn't.

I've noticed the parents who don't expect their kids to share DO expect other kids to share with theirs when they're screaming blue murder.

Teaching a toddler to share is an important part of the socialsiation process that as adults we are responsible for. It's about understanding empathy and co-operation, and if we employ both of those in our dealing with overseeing 'sharing' then we'll be modeling good behaviour too. So for example, I would never allow a child to take a toy off another or demand that a child hand something over instantly, that wouldn't be very empathic. Nore would I allow a child to squeal with rage and demand back a toy that they were not playing with. And I always try to remeber to emphasise how nice the other child woud feel if they could play with it. BTW I have no idea where the idea that kids can't understand sharing until 3 years of age comes becasue from a developmental perspective it horseshit

Children learn how to behave in society through play. That is why we make them share their toys - because we are teaching them about sharing their environment, indeed the rest of the world, with other people.

It is NOT the same as an adult expecting to be able to drive another adult's car or try on another adult's clothes etc.

At the risk of outing myself here - we recently went to visit some (not close) friends of DH whom I had not met before.

When we arrived, the children were playing in the garden and nearly the first thing the mother said to me was "I do feel sorry for them having to share their things, it's a bit like people coming around and rifling through your closet."

I assumed she was joking, so laughed.

Later on I watched as she repeatedly told my children to give toys back to her children, to get out of the way of the slide so her children could come down it, etc etc.

I was mortified.

Gawd, I do hope she's not a m-netter. Oh well, what the hell...

Good post Hettie,twins learn it from a very early age they have to otherwise it would be anarchy mine did,my sisters have done and so did my best friend's.

I childmind now and the 16 month old I mind for shares well with the other 5 kids here.

I agree I wouldn't tolerate having toys wrenched off a child however a child who has monopolized a favourite toy for a long time would be encouraged then informed that after a while somebody else would be having a turn.

I wouldn't like my dc not sharing their toys with guests(not special ones),it would be pretty pointless the guests coming. I have once reminded dd that her friend wouldn't want to come and play if she didn't let her have a turn with the sodding Belle dress. Interestingly said friend this week had a nice long go with it.

I very much see sharing toys as a model/precursor to adult sharing. I don;t see it as any different to the socially acceptable, polite ways we interact as adults - both at home and in the work place

i also don't see any incompatability between teaching children to share and teaching them to respect ownership.

It's because they've been taught both that socially adept adults wouldn't eat biscuits infront of a guest without offering one, would offer to lend books/cds to friends, wouldn't commandeer/demand these things, wouldn't damage them whilst borrowing them, wouldn't expect to borrow certain things (eg "my car's in the garage so I'm borrowing your's til the end of the week".) the rules are very complicated - but we pretty much know what's within and without them when we see it. and using toys as a tool to teach these rules is both important, and a pretty obvious thing to do imo.

OK so if sharing is wrong how do you deal with the situation when there is one thing that more than one child wants - that doesn't belong to any child, eg sitting in the front seat of the car. Only one front seat. Three children. Should that privilege always go to one child. To the one who gets there first. To the one who whinges loudest.

I just don't see the alternative to sharing.

And as an adult I do share. If someone pops in and DH are having a bottle of wine, we'd offer to share it with them. Isn't that normal civilised behaviour?

Dollius that seems a natural extension of something so ridiculous as teaching your children not to share.

How utterly silly to stop your children from playing with anything. How about making guests feel welcome.

Do you think the mother would be happy for the same thing to happen at your house? your children not letting hers play with toys etc etc

Sharing should be encouraged, it is a far more attractive trait than being mean and spiteful- call it 'defending ownership' if you like!

My DS, 16mths, was at a picnic with friends, all with older children. 2 out of the 3 other boys let DS lick their ice-cream while the 3rd child ran a mile as DS approached, aghast that he may have to share a drop. It made the child look quite weird frankly. This is the same child who at all gatherings where there is food involved will swipe far more than his fair share of food leaving little for the others, adults included.

Supercherry afraid i'd have been the child who didn't want your DS to lick my ice-cream as have been positiviely phobic from a young age about such things. Even now i couldn't share a drinks bottle/cup/glass with someone

Of course sharing is nice social behaviour and to think most of us are agreeing that its fine and to be encouraged but special toys should be exempt.

MarshaBrady - well she won't be coming to my house any time soon, so we'll never know

I honestly think she felt I should have brought toys with me for my boys to play with.

It was one of those really awkward situations which you just grin your way through and pray you can make a break for it some time soon.

yes I see, too right.

(wonders if the mother doesn't go anywhere or takes her own toys)

Ponders and dollius, those situations sound gobsmackingly awful!

It's just about finding a balance, isn't it? Teaching children to be kind/considerate/hospitable to others without giving them the message that their own feelings count for nothing. Showing them that we have to look for solutions to conflicts that everyone can live with.

Of course children need to learn that the world doesn't revolve around their wishes, but sometimes a blanket "share nicely" response just seems a bit of a cowardly way out of an awkward social situation.

Supercherry why didn't your DS have an ice-cream of his own ?

I would ask but certainly never force my DC to share 'treats' like ice-cream ot chocolate, although I do praise them if they offer to share, but hogging is strongly discouraged and all 'help yourself' type meals in our household come with a rule of 'if you take it, you eat it' There was one instance of team-hogging when we all (collectively) made the mistake of letting a group of about 10 DC (my DS being one of them) go and get pudding first from a buffet.

Creamy and other fancy puddings were untouched but there was not one single strawberry left - I didn't really mind (I had provided the buffet) since they all ate what they took.

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