I'm just reading an interesting German discussion on the English obsession with forcing children to share - apparently this is wrong, wrong, wrong and even to blame for ...

[emkana]

... the recession, as forcing young children to share encourages excessive greed in adulthood.

but seriously, the German consensus is that children should not be forced to share, that they have a right to defend their things and that it's not that children must learn to share, but that children must learn to accept ownership, so as not to demand things that others have. With the argument being that adults are not expected to share their things either, so why should children?

I can kind of see where they are coming from, but for everyday life I would find it very difficult. If ds has a visitor who wants to play with eg his digger, and ds won't let him, and visiting child cries, then I feel I have to enforce that ds shares, because I feel sorry for visiting child and because I want ds to learn empathy. But German viewpoint is that at ds's age you can't expect empathy so shouldn't aim to teach it. So what do you all think?

Well I think that 'taking turns' works out as the same thing as 'sharing'. It does in my house. The end result is the same.

No I wouldn't ask ds to share an ice cream either, it is annoying enough when dh wants 'a bite' of something of mine, I want the whole apple that's why I got it, I assume ds does too.

Yes, taking turns is the same as sharing.

Encouraging children to share should not make them cling to their things - if anything it shows that they can let other children play with them and then get them back again afterwards.

Sharing is not the same as giving away.

Can someone who doesn't beleive in sharing answer my query about the front seat thing. Three children. One front seat. If they all want to sit in it how do deal with that if they don't take turns (or share)? I just don't see how you manage to bring up decent human beings without teaching them the basics of 'sharing' - and by that I mean co-operation, team-work, consideration for others.

Obviously I am talking about older DC here.

OrmIrian, I don't think even the posters on the German thread were saying they didn't believe in sharing. It was more about parents not forcing their child to share all their own things at all costs, just to placate another child. And about the idea that you can't force a child (especially a very young one) to be empathetic, even if you do your best to model it.

Orm - I would just say 'no one sits there'. Or 'I sit there'. Because I am the grown up and they should defer to me. (Unless I am only car driver present, in which case I am in front passenger seat, cutting off nose to spite face and kids are in back, laughing their heads off as we sit going nowhere fast.)

PS meant to say icantbeleiveitsnotbitter was a bit to read your post tbh. Think there was more going on there than the sharing issue...

British obsession, British

Why oh why do people use 'English' when they actually mean 'British'? Or is there an assumption that sharing stops at the Scottish, Welsh and N. Irish borders

Paolosgirl, perhaps the OP doesn't mean British? Perhaps she has no experience of Scotland/Wales/N Ireland?

Ah but then merry, they'd bicker over who'd get to sit in the boot seats. And if I said 'no-one will sit there' they would all be sitting in the middle next to each other and proceed to bicker the entire journey

That's the sound of my jaw hitting the floor. You do know that we are all part of the UK? I'm sure if people really, really try they can imagine what happens in the other 3 countries in the UK.

But I don't think wresting the desired thing away from one child and giving it to another is teaching them anything about sharing, OrmIrian, it's just teaching them about my power over them.

Wehad pretty much this recently, one preferred carseat, one (a diff colour!) that non-one wanted. I told them that they needed to think of a fair way to sort it out, and they did, some horrendously complicated '3 turns for me, 3 for you unless we're going in daddy's car because he lets us go in the front' thing, and it then promptly became a non-issue and neither of them care any more.

This was after 2 weeks of hideous forced turn-taking that I'd imposed. When I was making them 'share' positions became v entrenched and |I had continuous 'it's my turn' 'no, you had it this morning' 'tell her', and I've realised I was depriving them of any chance to find the skills to be kind and equitable themselves.

I wouldn't 'force' my child to share a toy that is special to him; and if another child doesn't want to share his/her special toy I explain to DSs that this is their special toy and they don't want to share it right now, but maybe later you can have a little try. Generally I don't tak about 'sharing' as I find it is a concept - taking turns or playing together is what I try to explain to them. Sharing simply means to give it to the other kid, and I think it's very hard for a toddler to understand.

hmm i replied to this last night but couldn't come back to it as ds3 kept me away.

so, have onlky skimmed noiw as it's so long lol

but, i think what a lot of people seem to be missing is that the OP referred to "forced" sharing.
not sharing full stop.
Of course I encourage my children to think of others, and we model sharing and they pick up on that. we point out that it's nice to share, and that they enjoy it when people share with them,#

I do NOT believe in the concept of forced sharing. ie, if ds1 has a toy and another child wants to play with it we don't make him hand it over to the other child. if he has something then it's his until he decides he has had enough.
ditto, if he wants something that another child has then he has to wait his turn.

it isn't about letting them habve their way and never sharing, or taking all the toys they want. it's about valuing their feelings and their "right" to play with something and not making them give something up just because someone else decides they want it.

a lot of people have spoken about adult sharing, which is an entirely differnt thing. adults share because they want to, or out of a feeling of obligation. but basically either way they CHOOSE to share.
they aren't forced to.

if y your friend came over of course you'd share your sofa and your tea and biscuits.
but if halfway through a visit your friend demanded to sit in your chair instead. or demanded that you hand over your biscuit you wouldn't would you???

That article is idiotic.

As others have said, asking children to share their possessions is simply not comparable to asking adults to share their possessions. It's about teaching them how to behave in society, i.e. empathy, co-operation, social skills and understanding.

I will bite my tongue as to the value Germans clearly place on these...!

I think there is an element of discretion here. I had a situation with DD when we were at a party (which DS had been invited to). DD found some toys belonging to younger sibling of birthday child, but every time she picked one up he came rushing over to reclaim it.

Now if that was a playdate for DD then I would expect host mother to intervene, but:

• DD was there as a tag-along, not an invitee
• birthday child's sibling was suffering from 'not my birthday' lack-of-attention
• host mother had her hands full with party guests etc

..so I quietly removed DD and went and fetched one of her toys which happened to be in the car. At which point the little boy wanted that, of course, but DD stood her ground and said "mine"

Dollius - I have never heard of anything so strange. Why invite you and your children down if they weren't going to be able to play with anything. I wouldn't even have thought to take toys with me on a playdate.

I have also encouraged my DD (5) to share. Anything that she doesn't want her guest to play with are put away prior to anyone coming although she doesn't really have anything special (blanket, teddy etc) so rarely removes anything. There is no snatching allowed so if DD is playing with something and the other child wants a go, I will say that DD is playing with it at the minute but ask DD if the other child can play with it soon. DD usually lets them after the allotted time and if not is told to let the other child have their turn. This also works the other way around. DD has to wait her turn.

I think this is part of learning how to socially interact as an adult. As PP's have said, I would not dream of making myself a cup of tea and not offering one to my guest. If it is my birthday and I get a box of chocolates, I will always offer them around. Obviously I wouldn't expect my guests to rifle around my wardrobe and take a few t-shirts home, but if they ask if I happen to have a red skirt then I would lend it to them. The children are not being asked to give their toys away, just to let another child borrow it for a few minutes.

Car thing - this was a running battle between my sister and I growing up, especially when my parents divorced and my father bought a two-seater sports car (these days he wouldn't be allowed to take two kids and stash one on the parcel shelf, of course...).

Think the only possible method is to enforce rigorous turn taking and IF WW3 breaks out and they won't give in, stop the ruddy car and make them get out. My mother only had to do that once!

Cultural differences are always fascinating but the sharing thing makes me wonder what adult German society is like and how it functions.

I've only been there once very briefly so really have no idea but a vague impression that many Germans are very direct (I remember the 'knit hat' thread...) and really not into the approach to manners that is considered very important here.

Think someone once explained Germans (or it could have been another nation) think English obsession with saying please and thank you is very false because we say it automatically rather than just when we really mean it?

FWIW ds is an only child so I do try very hard to encourage sharing/taking turns and to explain that X or Y may not want to play Z game that ds is terribly keen on.

Who knows whether I'm getting it right or wrong, but I hope hanging out with the kids in the street/his cousins will help to knock some of those corners off - he won't get the constant negotiation/battles you have with siblings but a little shadow of that is no bad thing.

I've tried all sorts of techniques, from enforcing turn-taking to "because I said so" to "if you can't agree then no-one gets it"

All have spectacularly succeeded and equally spectacularly failed on different occasions .

I do know what you mean, Paolosgirl, about the British/English thing. It drives me crazy too. I just think that in this case "English" is justified because we're talking about culture, not political entities.

And for goodness sake, could people please get beyond this "the Germans"/"the English/British" thing? We're talking about societies made of individuals, not a population of robots

Two words. Beach. Towels.

doesnt this say more about German culture than it means to?

BFQi - there are cultural differences, though, between countries. They don't apply to every single individual of a particular nation but broadly there are differences between societies.

I thought the word 'English' was justified as we are talking about national character, and there are differences broadly between the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and English. But would be interested to hear from MNers across the countries of the UK about whether this is true in regard to what we think of as good manners. Mind you, my Welsh relatives had precisely the same approach to manners as the English when I was little, as far as I recall.

I can reassure you that the sharing does in fact take place in Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. I'm astounded that anyone in England would think otherwise.

well yes, of course! (Although actually my own Welsh rellies spoilt me rotten and stuffed me full of sweets IIRC.)