How to Talk so Kids Will Listen.../Unconditional Parenting/TCS thread

[flamingobingo]

Not sure if this will work! But come here and post if you want some helpful creative thinking from other parents also striving to talk in a way that will make their kids listen, parent unconditionally or to take their children seriously (more links)

No judgey-pants allowed, and only 'I want to find out more' questions, please - no debates

Firstly - please, someone, please, tell me how to get my 4yo to stop spitting! She's got into a real habit. It's not proper spitting, but raspberry blowing, but she's got into this horrid habit where she just does it so frequently.

It's driving me mad, and I am getting to the point where I am thinking the only solution is to threaten her with something - can't think what though, and don't want to do that anyway .

Please help!

otherside that's why I try to comfort the victim and the perpetrator at the same time - I worry so much about the conditional love thing.

In fact, last year DD2 (then 3.5) went through an awful phase, and I found it very difficult to get on with her. In the end, after lots of talking with my friends, we whittled it down to her testing how unconditional my love for her was. Trouble was, I wasn't loving her that much when she was behaving horribly .

I ended up with a big sheet of paper in the cupboard saying 'YOU LOVE DD2' in it, that I would go and look at when I was in a rage with her, and a friend of mine texted me a few times a day reminding me how lovely she can be. It worked . I started dealing with her unpleasant behaviour and tantrums by cuddling her up and talking to her calmly and within just a couple of weeks she was a different person.

It's showed more than any books, and any other parents, that bad behaviour is about testing parents' love and the more we withdraw it with horrid naughty steps and hugs only for the victim, the worse the child will behave.

fifitot I agree with you - hitting is not acceptable. I tend to hold their arm firmly but gently so they can't hit me and say firmly that it is not ok to hit but if she is that angry, she can get her anger out by hitting this cushion, or showing me how angry she is by scribbling on or screwing up paper, or by throwing mud at a wall (outside) for example.

So I don't ignore, but I don't punish either, and I try to provide an alternative.

I would need Mr Tickle's arms to comfort both at once because DS often goes behind the sofa or under the table after he has hit because he knows it is wrong.

Flamingo it's true what you say about showing your love being the best way to make children more loving and pleasant to be around.

Oh dear otherside re. needing Mr Tickle arms! Mind you, if he's hiding round the sofa, then he probably doesn't want a cuddle right now. I think the point is not refusing a cuddle, rather than ensuring that they get one IYSWIM.

It's funny - my children look terrified and upset when they've done something wrong, even though we don't do punishments in our house!

She's nearly 3. I try not to shout at her when she does this as I know it's counterproductive but she just gets me so angry.

I don't actually think there is much wrong with shouting in an authentic, honest way.

Eg "OW, that HURT! I don't WANT you to hurt me, OW.".

I think kids benefit from seeing that parents are people who they can hurt.

So if she is two you can let her know it hurts and that it is not allowed. If necessary hold her in a way that she can't keep hitting. Suggest other ways of showing anger and/or help her defuse her anger by dealing with the cause.

Thanks - will try but she's a fast mover with a hefty smack when she gets going and my ouches aren't out put on!

I have a question for you UPers. What would you do if your child had done a pooh in their nappy but refused to let you change them and was happy to just sit in it and also what about refusing to wear a sunhat/suncream? For the refusing to wear a coat/shoes/gloves/scarf I just go along with it and then he puts them on when he decides he is cold or his feet are hurting.

Also what about when they have kicking/screaming/crying tantrums. DS has only just started doing them this week and I'm not really sure what I should be doing for the best. Some people have said to stay near him but not interact with him (so basically ignoring him) but I think I read further up the thread you shouldn't ignore tantrums?

I wouldn't just leave a child to sit in a soiled nappy. That's just asking for nappy rash. So in the same way that I would intervene to stop a child hurting themselves, I would intervene and change the nappy.
Sunhat/suncream. I don't use suncream much anyway preferring to cover up but as above, if they were going to get burnt without it, I would just put it on. With sunhats, I could never get mine to keep one on anyway, so had to just watch that they didn't suffer from over-exposure.
Tantrums - wait while the main force of the tantrum passes and then ask what it was about.

I agree with juuule. The nappy needs changing so you change it-the DC doesn't have the least understanding of the skin problems it will cause. I think it is cruel to take a DC out with no clothes because they won't put them on! There is no point in doing anything with a tantrum-sort it all out when they have finished.

nappy:

a really good thread on nappies here, from a TCS POV: here. My short answer would be that you should either

a) find a way of making nappy changes acceptable to the child eg doing them standing up with child doing something really interesting on a table in front of them, or combining a nappy change with a good play in soapy water in the washing up bowl (give them a quick wipe down in the 5 seconds between nappy off and jump in water)

or

b) go nappy free. heck, it's the summer - if you can't do it now, when can you?!

suncream or hat:

either

a) find a way of making acceptable e.g. dress up in a splendid pirate outfit which just happens to have a wide brimmed hat as an integral part of it, and a long-sleeved t shirt

or

b) play somewhere with lots of shade - a walk in the woods and climb on fallen trees?

tantrums:

explain a bit more what you mean. Is it that under certain stressful situations, where your child wants something and you won't let them have it, they are getting very frustrated? Or is it that they can't communicate what they want? Is it because they are too tired or hungry to do anything other than cry? I don't think "tantrum" is a particularly helpful way of looking at it, myself, because it isn't situation specific and therefore has a tantrum as a sort of vague thing one can't do anything to prevent or help. If it's because you are thwarting your child, try to stop thwarting them! If it's because they are getting tired or hungry or thirsty, try offering them food/drink earlier etc etc. The more attentive we are to our children, the less they get overwhelmed and angry and frustrated. In imaginary land where I am the perfect mother, my children never have tantrums. (actually, sometimes I do think that a child is going to be desperately sad or angry about something which isn't their fault, isn't your fault, is just how things are. And I personally think that our mindful presence, in a zen sense, is the best thing we can offer our children when they have got into that state)

The very short summary of all this is that yes, I can see that sometimes there are things a parent thinks are best to do. And you can force it. But that makes it harder next time and is also pretty disrespectful. So either you find an acceptable way (to your child) of getting your way, or you find a way of doing something else entirely so that the point of conflict dissolves. And no of course one doesn't manage it all the time but yes, dammit, those are the standards to which we should be aspiring.

Just a question ommward-I am not really one side or another because I haven't really thought about it-just musing really.
Points to ponder:

Is it actually a good thing for a DC to have every single move negotiated so that the DC has no idea how to deal with conflict or manage their own feelings of anger?

The DC is never thwarted so they go to visit great grandma who has a red emergency cord -in a very visible tempting place-DC wants to pull it, however much she is distracted she wants to pull that cord-she can't pull the cord. There are lots of things that a DC wants to do in daily life and can't. Is it not a good thing to be told 'No' sometimes and to understand the word?

Does the mother always have to negotiate the wants of the DC? (even when they are tired and unreasonable) e.g. the mother has a nasty cold,has had very little sleep and a migraine coming on-can't she just say 'your nappy is dirty-mummy is tired and just needs to change it quickly'.

You have a DC who is plain contrary when overtired. You offer her a red cup but she wants the blue, you do the obvious to stop the tantrum and say 'of course you can have the blue if you prefer' -however she is in the state that whatever you do is going to be wrong-she has got past the stage of knowing what she wants. (You are very lucky if you haven't had this situation). You can't meet her needs because her needs are sleep which she is refusing to give in to.

The biggest problem of all-2 small DCs and one adult! The DCs want entirely different things DC1 will be upset if he doesn't have his way but DC2 will be upset if he does have his way. There isn't a solution to suit them both and if you say you won't do either they are both upset!

DC1 is a very quiet, calm, reasonable DC but DC2 is a noisy, boisterous DC who will argue that black is white. Is DC1 not in danger of giving way to DC2 all the time because they don't like conflict?

Having written it all down I think, on reflection, that I think a certain amount of thwarting and conflict is a good thing. One of my weaknesses is that I do a lot to avoid an argument and I wish that I was better at it-that is arguing in a constructive way. Part of family life is finding out that you can't have your own way, you will get upset and have to do things that you don't want to do (and it shouldn't always be the mother IMO). I prefer to be direct and say what I mean rather than manipulate my DCs into doing what I wanted to do in the first place.

I agree that your examples are things that I would probably do anyway ommmward but sometimes the parent is only human, has had a bad day and doesn't feel in the mood! Is it a bad thing for the DCs to recognise this?

This isn't the debate thread, as the OP said at the start. Please would you repost this message in the debate thread and leave this as a support thread for those practising TCS/UP/NVC/consentual family life?

thanks deary

ommmmward - that is how we get around the suncream and hat issue usually - by not going in the sun too much, but on days where we are at the beach and the park all day with no shade it is hard to get around. We had one of those sun tents when he was a baby but now at 2 years old he won't stay in it for long.

When I say tantrum I mean getting down on the floor kicking, crying, high pitched screaming for no apparent reason. He can do this at anytime of the day from after just getting up to right before bedtime so i don't think it's a tiredness thing.

"...for no apparent reason."

that scenario doesn't exist, unless the person is deranged. There is a reason in his mind and even though it may seem completely irrational to us, it's there and real for him. I'd say that if it starts, you need to quickly cast your mind back over the last 5 minutes or 10 minutes. And maybe even scribble down a note of what was just happening (he's screaming on the floor at this point. 20 seconds of reflection to respond better next time might be time well spent). In a few days you'll start to sense the trigger points. And then it's just a matter of finding ways to avoid those triggers, and head the tantrum off at the pass (which of course one doesn't always get right but heck, if by being conscious of the triggers and working to find less coercive ways of dealing with those situations we can halve to number of floor kicking episodes, what's not to like?!)

I'd say that if a child DOES NOT WANT to cover up or wear suncream, and has easily burnable skin, then better solutions might involve shady places, or going out when the fierceness of the sun hasn't got going yet, or has passed. Head towards the park with a picnic at just the time when the hordes are being dragged home, screaming and sunburned, for supper

We are going on holiday with other people though so aren't really going to be able to avoid it. They are going to want to spend the whole day outdoors and who should blame them in this glorious weather. It seems my only option his to pin him down or make him wear some sort of mask

ommmward - it really is for no reason. he will just be playing and then go off on one. sometimes it's because i've said he can't do something or have something. In this case what do you do? But other times there isn't a pattern. I did the making a note thing a while back and there was nothing in common with any of them. He'd have just been playing or sitting down with a book or walking around.

Ommmward, NA did say no apparent reason. A scenario that can exist. We sometimes might not always understand what triggers a tantrum.

if noone else is interacting with him and he's playing away happily and then flips into full blown tantrum, then I'd guess that the toy isn't doing what he wants it to in some way, or something similar. So then it's a judgment between offering to help (with that tricky thing that you were - completely reasonably - using the 3 mins of contented solo play to do something different so may well not have a clue what was going on, and asking what he needs may itself trigger more fury because you are supposed to know by magic, or he can't explain it) and just being available to offer comfort.

Really important not to blame yourself in any way for that sort of thing, but just to remain really calm and present and ready to help or comfort if needed.

The other kind, where there is unsatisfactory adult involvement (from the child's POV) we can do more about And please don't imagine I'm perfect at this. But I often find it helpful to talk with adult friends outside the moment and they'll say "ooh, why not try X as an alternative" - something totally outside the box which I'm happy with and my child actively prefers to whatever impossible or inconvenient scenario they had in mind. It doesn't always stop a conflict, of course, with the conversation happening 3 days later, but it often helps me avoid those repeated triggers where we were conflicting every single day over the same thing and everyone seemed to be stuck.

And yes, juule, of course you're right. It just helps me to remember that, while my screaming child might seem to me to have no reason for screaming, they haven't actually gone loony, and there is a trigger which is perfectly reasonable on their terms, even if I don't understand it myself. Helps me to be more sympathetic.

Hello,

I've had a skim of this thread and was following another UP thread. I find it interesting though I am not sure that I agree with all of the posts people have made, e.g. one of the responses on here about a child not taking off a dress was to go out and buy her another one for the summer, or on a previous thread about a child going on other people's slide was 'why not suggest you go together and buy him his own slide'. I'm not sure I agree with those points (sorry - those are just things I remember and I sure not representative) and they are not always practical.

I'm not sure about the housework thing either, I mean I hate house work but I love living in a clean house, saying adults (and children) shouldn't have to do things they don't want to do seems a bit facile to me. Surely some things are worth working for, plus wanting to live in a clean house doesn't make me want to clean it, so I'm not particularly happy about it either way.

Anyway, I will continue to read the thread and DH has just got me how to talk... from the library. I'm not sure the TCS/UP approach is for me, but I would certainly like to take some lessons from it.

UP while being similar in some ways is different to TCS. Look into them both separately Bumper, as they are not "one" way of doing things. They have differences.

DS age 6 has recently started giving lots of kisses at bedtime. Arms around our necks, he'll kiss our cheek continually. If we try to pull away he grabs at us or our clothes. He thinks it is funny when we protest.

It is really most unpleasant, it spoils the bedtime closeness for me. I have tried to explain that if someone doesn't want to be touched any more you have to stop because it doesn't feel nice to them.

Tonight I tried to let him kiss me until he had had enought but after he had kissed me 40 times I couldn't stop myself pulling away. Cue the grabbing etc.

Any ideas?

Honestly I'm not being awkward here but it doesn't seem to be the toys. The only toys he really plays with are cars so theres not really anything to help with. You push them and that's it. And today he was in the kitchen literally not doing anything, just standing there and then 1 second later he was on the floor. Nothing would console him. Every time I tried to distract him it made him worse. God knows what it was about!