How to Talk so Kids Will Listen.../Unconditional Parenting/TCS thread

[flamingobingo]

Not sure if this will work! But come here and post if you want some helpful creative thinking from other parents also striving to talk in a way that will make their kids listen, parent unconditionally or to take their children seriously (more links)

No judgey-pants allowed, and only 'I want to find out more' questions, please - no debates

Firstly - please, someone, please, tell me how to get my 4yo to stop spitting! She's got into a real habit. It's not proper spitting, but raspberry blowing, but she's got into this horrid habit where she just does it so frequently.

It's driving me mad, and I am getting to the point where I am thinking the only solution is to threaten her with something - can't think what though, and don't want to do that anyway .

Please help!

Okay, so no taking toys away if throwing? What would I do instead - given that asking and explaining didn't work? Cos I only say no throwing when its dangerous (babies in room and hard objects), so I can't think what else would be sensible.

Also - he likes to watch Charlie and Lola before bed, and we have a bath first, then down to watch tv, then story and cuddle and sleep. So if he doesn't hurry then he'll miss C&L, so I use this to engineer a consequence if he doesn't do as I ask, but it is really a punishment because I set it up that way?

I think I'm going to get stuck in the philosophy of it all, when really I just want to stop shouting and threatening and feeling guilty.

Take him away from baby and give him something suitable to throw.

I'm trying to live the TCS philosophy but am pretty crap at it Hence why threads like this, and sympathetic friends are sooooooooooo helpful. The more reflecting one does, the better one gets IME! I know quite a few parents who try to do TCS in real life too (although I only know Ommmward via the internet initially - have met her a couple of times) and their children (older than mine) are lovely.

And, as Ommmmmward said on the other thread, you don't have to discuss everything you ever do - most things happen quite easily in such a way that everyone's happy.

kayjayel I would do what otherside suggests - definitely say 'it's not ok to throw hard things because they a) break and b) really hurt but you can throw soft things like balled up socks'.

What sort of throwing is it? Just for fun? Could you set up a waste paper basket as a 'goal' and throw screwed up newspaper into it? Get some of those little beanbags?

And no, I don't think you're punishing him about C&L - there's no way you can change the tv schedule.

Except I guess you could get a C&L dvd or download it onto iplayer so that he could watch it when he was ready - but I guess that would impinge on your evening, and you shouldn't be self-sacrificing either...or would you be happy with him staying up a little later to watch C&L later if he dawdled over bedtime? or could you get him ready for bed while he watches it?

I can't believe you lot started this without me!!

Here's my question:

What if you agree with these approaches in principle, and try to use them as much as possible, but when all else fails, revert to other, more 'traiditonal' methods (e.g. I think taking a toy that has been thrown is a pretty logical consequence if nothing else is working, and when my ds1 was experimenting with spitting, I put him in tme out after the talk about germs had fallen on deaf ears -- he still spits occassionally, but less often, and I reckon it is something he'll grow out of, but it is just not acceptable to me, and I think he needs to know where the line is)?

SO, does that negate any good work that you may have done?

Hi, I am hoping that someone can give me some good tips for dealing with persistent nose-picking in a 2.8 year old. It's driving me mad. The thing is, when I say 'Why are you doing that?', she just says 'Because I have to get the snot out' and I can kind of see her point. But it's horrible to look at and she can't blow her nose at all and the snot is of the unblowable kind anyway. Sorry, TMI. Any tips?

Sorry, meant to say that I am a strong advocate of the UP thing and really try to make DD see that her opinions count etc but the nose-picking is just vile. I really want to stop her doing it. Or at least stop her doing it ALL THE FECKING TIME.

Have you told her exactly what you just posted (it's kind of gross to look at) and then make sure there are tissues within her reach? Then, next time she's doing it, instead of 'don't pick your nose, that's so disgusting' say, 'tissue!'

(watching for nose picking tips)

My DD does this too.
but I have to say I don't feel so bad about it after talking to my friend who's DS is always fidding about with his willy.

You could read 'don't do that' by Tony Ross with her.

hopeforthebest I think it's best to see these things not as some sort of parenting nationality. How to Talk is a set of very useful skills you can use to try to get your children to comply more with what you want, and to open up with you. UP is an actual approach to parenting. TCS is something completely different - a philosophy of life where the theory is that everyone should be able to live their lives without being coerced at any time, because of how damaging coercion can be to rational thought. The term TCS just applies an existing theory to parenting.

I first read How To Talk when my DD1 (now 6) was about 20m old. Then I learnt about TCS and rejected it entirely as laissez faire parenting. However, somehow I stayed intrigued by it and joined a TCS email list (with very strict rules as it's actually for discussing the theory, not about talking about your children) and got very cross with it all for a long time. I knew a few TCS parents and was building up friendships with them so more honest discussion started taking place. I learnt more, and started trying to live that way, and started believing in it too. Then I hooked up with Ommmmward IRL (we knew eachother online via TCS stuff), and I learnt more. Now I believe in it very strongly, but am utterly crap at living it and need constant support to improve my problem solving skills!

oregonian Don't try and be perfect. I don't think that you will ever negate any instances of respecting your child. I think 'have high standards, try to aim for them, expect not to reach them and don't hate yourself when you don't'!. I try and think 'ok, we didn't find the common preference then, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there, and doesn't mean we won't find it next time', and try and reflect on what I could have done better.

horton Why don't you like the nose-picking? Just because it looks horrid? Could you ask her to do it in private because of how socially unacceptable it is? In the same way you might ask a child not to play with his/her genitalia in public?

Is it because she does it to such an extent that she makes herself have a nosebleed? In which case, maybe some children's books about nose-picking, like otherside suggests, might help. Or, sit down and explain why she needs to stop doing it, or do it less and ask her for suggestions as to how to stop doing it - maybe saline nose drops to loosen the snot so she can use a hankie/tissue - buy her some fab hankies that are just hers and let her choose?

And I would like to know how on earth to deal with big grown up 4yo tantrums at the time? Tantrums kicked off by seemingly innocuous things, so can't really be avoided.

They're either down to overtiredness (going to start letting her listen to her own body as she's a real night bird and sleeps late in the morning - except we wake her so she can get to sleep in the evening, but I think it could be causing hte problem!)

Or they're due to the fact she's subconsciously getting a bit stressed by the fact she's going to stay with her grandparents with her big sister for three nights soon - something she's desperate to do, but I'm well aware that one can be very emotionally stressed by things one loves! In which case, they'll stop in a few days when she's done that.

But...in the meantime...what? Help!? She won't let me touch her. Screams as if she's being tortured. Throws stuff (although has enough control not to throw hard things!). She just gets completely past it and can't stop herself for ages - like upwards of an hour sometimes! Any ideas?

My ds age 4 has been doing similar.

Things we are trying (with various degrees of success):

MAGIC ON THE PILLOW: glitter on pillow. much eye rolling and talking in tongues together for the 'magic' to help ds turn into big, grown up boy who can use words to express himself instead of shouting/hurting/ hitting/ spitting/ etc... (this might be a little bit coercive, but he is really into it, tried it once in desperation and we have had reminders for 2 or 3 weeks -- need to buy more glitter!)

BIG BUNNY EARS: When I see a strop looming, I shout 'BIG BUNNY EARS' which is meant to remind him that I can listen to his words, or he can go and get his bunny and talk to it if he needs to.

DRAWING PICTURES: We sit together and draw, and talk about stuff at the same time. If it seems like it might help, I ask him to draw an incident that was/ will be either particularly fun/ happy, or unpleasant, or stressful, or whatever.

MUSIC: Putting on a CD and dancing about like loons is working as a great distractor/ deflecter. We also talk about how the singer might be feeling in the song.

If I think of more I'll post -- off to do some drawings!

PS, Thanks for the words about perfectionism, flamingobingo.

otherside I completely hear you, bigger kids hitting smaller kids is an absolute red rag to me and I don't know if I handle it at all well.

I know the books say you should say something like something like "X has been hit by Y (am assuming I have seem what has happened). In this family we don't hit. I want us to talk about what has just happened.".

But that doesn't really seem to work. Usually the kid who has been hit is quite upset and the other child is on the defensive anyway-they know they shouldn't have hit.

That seems great when I read it in the books (especially since in the next cartoon we then have the children saying something like "gee, Xavier, you're right, hitting can hurt, I never thought of that before.".

In rl it seems pretty inadequate tbh. And I am not sure if it works.

Main problem round here is not actually deliberate hitting, its negligent hitting.

Have done the whole brainstorming thingy even using bits of paper. The absolute best my kids could come up with was "we try very hard not to hit".(other suggestions involved dragons and pandas).

I should say we use how to talk techniques within a TCS framework as a rule. I just wish I could stop all hitting! Incidentally, they have never been hit and even physical restraint is not used at all lightly.

flamingo, this might be a daft question but why can't she just tantrum?

I think some kids have strong feelings and tantruming can be a useful, fairly quick, release.

I have a 4 yo who has quite angry tantrums where no one can touch her. The struggle for us has been conveying to her that these emotions are ok, and if the only way she can let it out is to tantrum, that is ok too. We might need to move her, say if she is disturbing others (not ok to tantrum where the deal is that others get quiet, for example! So not ok to tantrum in her baby sister's room at bed time). But aside from that, really, IMO her emotions are her own business.

I do also believe its possible to go too far in trying to uncover the underlying feelings in things. First, sometimes kids are upset by little things! Second, they need a certain amount of practice in working these emotions out for themselves.

Sleep thing is a PITA though, I have nightowls but its ok as we home educate.

Great thread! I'll definitely be coming back as my DS is only 7mo at the moment. But interested to watch for the time being.

(taking that into account bear in mind my suggestions are all hypothetical, I hope nobody minds me offering my ideas)

I do think there are some things that need to have logical consequences, but you can minimise the "punishment" side of things - so e.g. the throwing thing, you can remove the item (as it's a safety issue) but say to the child that although they can't throw that thing there, they may throw a ball outside, or I liked the suggestion of throwing newspaper/socks/beanbags into a wastepaper basket. Or find out why they are throwing it - frustration? boredom? aggression (jealousy) towards the baby? Trying to get the baby's/your attention? And then address that (the cause) rather than the throwing behaviour (the symptom).

Another example which is non-negotiable - a child who runs into the road. The logical consequence to that may be that you have to cut back on the freedom allowed to the child by using reins, holding hands or riding in a buggy when you are near roads. But as it's not supposed to be a punishment you would try not to make it unpleasant, e.g. getting the kind of reins which have a backpack for toddlers to wear. Or that might be completely the wrong approach!

filly it's that these huge screaming tantrums are new in the last few days . And she really does get out of control to such an extent I actually worry about her hurting herself - screaming, and throwing things. And all those stress hormones cannot be good for her! And they are lasting so, so long! They are proper, proper meltdowns

cherry Most children are happy to not throw something when they're given a very rational reaso not to, unless they're doing it for some underlying reason, like you say, so there should be no need for actually removing something without the child's consent - well that's the theory anyway!

Re. the running into the road - all good ideas. A toddler may well be happy wearing reins or a backpack if it means they can walk on their own.

But very quickly mine have gained a good road sense from being trusted and having things explained to them - like seeing a crushed drinks can in the road and discussing why it's crushed!

It's not actually non-negotiable - you just have to find the solution that means no one is being coerced or self-sacrificing. And that may well be buying the toddler a fun back-pack to wear. Or it might be letting them walk as often as you can, but providing something special for them to have in the buggy when you're walking along roads.

Just saw another suggestion I've never heard before for the tantrums on another thread - whispering something to them. Apparently sometimes they stop to listen to what you're saying because it's so quiet. Going to give it a try next time.

My children only really ever throw stuff when they are angry. They only really ever hit when they are angry.

This is when all these fine "One toy! Two toddlers! Gosh, what a tricky situation but I am sure you two can sort it out!" proclamations fail me. It is not logical for them. It occurs to me that actually there may not be a nirvana of family tranquility out there.

Am wittering now.

flamingo, what does she say about the tantrums? How does she feel afterwards? She is 4, so I guess fairly verbal? Does she want help to stop tantruming? Or do you find them just awful and need them not to happen (quite reasonable!)

honestly, I think if you possibly can then let her listen to her own body. But am I right in saying you have more than one child (remember a thread about a 2 yo?). So these things get hard, don't they, when there are several kids to consider.

Thanks fillyjonk.

I didn't say anything until this morning. He was too tired to listen last night.

Apparently turns out they were having some kind of arm wrestle and because he is stronger, he punched her in the eye. So sort of an accident although I think he realised he was in the wrong because he is obviously stronger than her which is why he got angry rather than distraught.

Is that negligent hitting?

We agreed that we know he's the strongest and there is no need to try to establish it again.

So glad I didn't cede to the urge to punish him.

Hitting a big problem in our household too ds1(4) hits ds2(2) on a regular basis, so much so that ds2 is starting to use it. No amount of 'hitting is not OK, it hurts and we don't hurt in our household, let's talk about what happened' is going to stop him lashing out at his younger brother when he feels 'justified' (e.g. this morning's offence, ds2 drew a huge scribble on ds1's lovingly made drawing for his grandmother). Oh, yes, I used the 'do you feel frustrated because he drew on your picture that you had been working on for grandma, right? but we still shouldn't hit, tell him your feelings.' he ignored me and then whacked him again later over a lego infraction don't know what caused that one.

Am really looking forward to some good suggestions on this one.

oregonion - I think your post about is exactly what I feel - I agree with a lot of it in principle, but I'm not sure whether I can practice it. I've always tried to make consequences make a kind of sense - so not removing toys because he's done something I don't like, and turning tv off if its distracting him from getting dressed or listening. But its still punishment.

So I need help with what I should have done this morning!

DS threw toys. He was asked to stop (they were hard things) and continued and one hit DP who said in an annoyed voice 'Ow'. In response to this Ow he then went wild - throwing himself around and then throwing all of the baby toys around. He was asked to calm down, but wasn't at all engaged. DP asked me for help and I told DS breakfast was ready (DP told me in front of DS about the throwing). DS then refused porridge and insisted on different cereal, so we had a conflict. I stayed calm, was feeding the baby and myself and saying how annoying it was for him that he couldn't have cereal, and he got so angry, red faced, hit me several times, tried to hit the baby, ended up insisting that I didn't eat my breakfast, sat on my knee. I kept saying what a shame it was how angry he felt, and he calmed a bit, and eventually a spider distracted him and then he managed one mouthfull of porridge.

So - I could have given him cereal. But - he is high energy and it doesn't keep him full, and we always have tantrums and horridness later when he hasn't eaten good food, plus I can't make food and throw it, its too expensive. Also I used to give him choice over foods, and it was a real problem (he just wouldn't want anything), and after years of this recently I've just been putting things on the table and he seems much happier about it, and we've had less fuss and more pleasure in eating. So I don't think it would suit him to give him food control again.

And I hate being hit. It makes me feel incredibly angry, and then later very upset and low. It takes all my self control not to react to being hit. Hitting the baby can be too much for me.

And the room was a mess -, I absolutely have to hoover it today (MIL here), before he's back, so couldn't leave it to be tidied later. I wanted him to tidy it, and I usually give him an incentive - if he does it then we'll have time to do something he likes.

I was pleased he calmed down without me insisting on it, but I hated him hitting me and me 'giving in' to his insistence that I didn't eat my breakfast. Also DP is just not going to go for it if he acts like this.

Help! Is this just a reaction to me acting differently (which I suspect) and how do you get sceptical DPs to come round to it? And would you really give a child a different meal if you'd made one?

I was quite pleased he calmed down, but it left me feeling quite battered emotionally.