Unconditional Parenting in a nutshell (I know this is incredibly lazy)

[SuperBunny]

I am embarrassed to do this but I haven't been able to read the book and need some quick Dos and Don'ts til I can get hold of the book again.

I have read some of the old threads but was really hoping that some nice person could give me a couple of bullet points about unconditional parenting.

I will be very grateful.

I have been interested in this UP stuff for a while now, but I just cannot get my head around the no praise bit

I think it is because DD looks so delighted when she has made something or been helpful with the chores and we notice and praise her for it. I can't imagine what I would do in place of that, because just noticing what she has done isn't the same thing. Or it doesn't seem the same thing to me for example when I passed my driving test obviously I was pleased with myself and felt a sense of achievment and pride that I had done it, BUT being told well done and good job by other people was important too. If DH had just said 'you have passed your test' or 'why don't you phone x and tell them you have passed' it would feel quite dismissive to me

I try hard to be UP, we don't do rewards, naughty step, silly praise (well done xxx you ate your tea) or time out etc and we do do alot of debating the reasons for/against various things, but I also say well done to my DTs when they have achieved something because they have done well and it is nice to recognise it. Not sure Alfie would approve though

i do praise because i am lazy / busy and it is a quick way to make ds1 feel good
my friend made a vow she would do complete UP for a day and she said it nearly killed her being creative about what she said and not bleating "oh good boy" all the time

it is hard work isn't it

Hmm, IIRC from my People Skills book its meant to be all about expressing how people's actions have helped you, made you feel good etc ("thanks for washing up when it was my turn, that's great, I was really tired tonight and couldn't face it" or whatever). Don't know about DD, but I like the appreciation.

I do try to stick to this with dd, I hate the 'good girl' thing anyway as it makes me think of dogs. Or indeed to try to express why whatever she might have done is a good thing for her IYSWIM (I think that was really sensible to do your homework this morning, dd, it means you won't have to worry about it when you want to play with x this afternoon). I suppose a bit like the thing of trying to verbalise emotions more than you might otherwise to give them ways to express how they feel.

Takver - how old is your dd? I presume from your mention of a teacher that she is school age? Which means it doesn't get magically better any time soon....??

Do you manage to avoid wanting to batter her over the head when you need her to get going and get things done?

I tried that remind & get it done technique this evening, Cherrychoc. Worked beautifully, so thanks for that. Interestingly, I actually told her I was reminding her and that made her get on with things. No idea why that should be. Presumably it won't work again tomorrow but thank you for the key to a peaceful evening tonight!

She's 7, so no, sorry, it doesn't magically improve . .. I did ask exactly that question on another thread a few months back, and got a reply from someone whose DH was exactly the same at the age of 35 . . . (although I presume he doesn't put his pyjama bottoms on absentmindedly instead of trousers when getting ready for work?)

The thing that dd struggles with particularly, I would say, (and it has become more obvious as she's got older) is switching from one activity to another. She also is very, very bad at multi-tasking, as is my DH. (Looking at it positively, both of them are exceptionally good at focussing very intently on one thing for a long time - so long as it is something that they are interested in.)

So, she is busy thinking - and talking - about lions. Its really hard for her to switch track, and think about putting her shoes on and leaving the house for school. And she definitely can't simultaneously put on the right shoes and continue thinking about lions.

Giving her loads (like really loads) of notice about a change of activity does help, also not just talking from a distance, but going right up to her, and if necessary, touching her to get her attention. Also leaving loads of spare time. As well as biting my tongue, and trying not to let my blood pressure rise too high . . .

I will try Cherrychoc's 'Say, Remind, Make it Happen' thing tomorrow. Thank you

With DS who finds mulit-tasking hard, I actually have to say 'no talking until we get in the car' at shoes and coat on time.

He accepts this because he knows that as soon as we are driving off, I will turn to him and say 'right, what was it you were saying about lions?'.

Thanks Takver for reminding me about the good concentration.

That sounds very like my dd, othersideofthechannel, and also I need to give her lots of warning that it is about to be time to stop and put shoes & coat on.

I guess as she's got older I've kind of realised that being bad at multitasking and switching activities is part of her character, and goes along with all the positive things about being really fascinated by lots of stuff, happy to focus really intently on one thing for ages and so on.

this has moved on a LOT since I posted the other night lol, so have only briefly skimmed so far.

just wanted to add with the no praise thing. AK is very adamant about no praise.
I agree with Franny that WE see it as important because it's how we were brought up.

the point of not praising them, but saying something like "you got all the seeds in the holes!" is that you are allowing the child to decide whether or not that is praise-worthy iyswim?
he can take that as you praising him, or not, as he sees fit.
this is important.

if your child finds something really easy (reading for example) and you always say "hey well done, you read that well" the child thinks well, yeh, it's easy of course I read it well.
the praise becomes meaningless.

if they find something really difficult and don't do it well you probably won't praise them. even though they may have tried really hard.
or, you praise them even though the outcome is crap, so you're giving them mixed messages. because on the one hand you're saying "i'm pleased with you when you do things well" and you're also saying "i'm pleased with you when you can't do things"

by NOT praising but making observations you're leaving it up to them as to whether they think they've done really well or not and whether or not to interpret what you've said as praise.

does that make sense???

BUT I strongly believe, as with anything in life that you should take the bits of UP (or whatever) that YOU think are right for your family.
I do praise ds's sometimes, i can't help myself. I still think of myself on the whole as a UP type parent though.
I don't use the book as a set of rules on how to raise my children, but as a resource of different ways to approach things and a few guidelines on how we might make things better for us/them.

I can't help feeling that this no praise approach rather under estimates the child though - and a parents relationship with the child. Also if you never praise - then it doesn't matter whether the praise is meaningless or not, there is no such thing as significant or meaningful praise is there because it never happens? So that makes no sense.

Seems to be that if you are a very sombre parent who only shows delight in their very existence by saying 'well done, you ate your tea all up' - then you are indeed giving rather dodgy signals.

But if on the whole you like your child, and their jokes and the chat, and their thoughts and endeavours and this is clearly and easily and naturally evident in your day to day doings - then I don't see why on earth a child should think, 'when she praised that picture, I felt loved! I must always do good pictures, so I feel loved and vindicated by my parent, because I have no sense of myself and our relationship beyond my finger painting.'

That reasoning just doesn't ring true with me somehow.

So when AK says:
"And encouragement?helping people feel acknowledged so that their interest in a task is redoubled?is not a bad thing. "

What does that mean? Because to me that seems to describe what I am doing when I tell my children that they have done something well or have done something right. It shows them that they are going in the right direction.

If I was blindfolded in a maze and took a correct turning, I would prefer someone to tell me that I had gone the right way, not just say 'oh I see you turned a corner there' which wouldn't be very helpful.

AK lists his 5 main objections to praise as

1. Manipulating children 2. Creating praise junkies.
2. Stealing a child?s pleasure as in waiting for the child to declare their success rather than jumping in a saying 'well done'.
3. Losing interest in that they will only do something as long as they have people watching and saying how good they are.
4. Reducing achievement. Again in that the child only does what is necessary to achieve the reward.

So, bearing those in mind, I would think that praise isn't harmful as long as it is done with the right intentions. e.g. to guide the child to what is the appropriate way of doing something, to celebrate a child's success at something and be happy with them.

I think it's tricky to explain because of some difficulties with the definitions of praise/encouragement and manipulation/guidance.

But empty praise is never good and the child usually sees right through it.

Oh yes, I see, that makes sense doesn't it?

It's like the fixed mindset v the growth mindset. They are doing a term of this in ds2's class at school - removing all external awards, like merits or stickers etc, and seeing if they can find ways to encourage the 'growth' mindset and promote internal satisfaction, rather than 'external' fixed sense of achievement. It's quite interesting how the children are responding to this experiment too.

I've not heard of "fixed mindset v the growth mindset" before but after a quick look it does seem to be of a similar idea.
Looks interesting. Thanks for mentioning it.

kohn is all about removing the stickers
that's exactly it
he argues against bonuses at work also - they actually demotivate people
his book punished by rewards is excellent (moondog will now come on and say it sucks )

The thing I don't get about unconditional parenting is the no praise bit. I can see how excessive praise can be counter productive but isn't it human nature to delight in being told ''weell done!''? I think that it is perfectly natural to praise and to be bloody pissed off when the kids have been ''naughty''. I think that as long as displeasure is acted on in an appropriate fashion then it's ok. That's the hard bit and I havn't decided which camp I'm in yet!
I just can't see myslef behaving on the level all of the time and not praising or punishing at all. (I will do my best but I'm not sure it's realistic.)
Definately agree with picking battles though.

it's all about the differenve between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

If a child has a goal and achieves that goal, they leap about in celebration and the parent celebrates with them.

But if a child does something and the parent/teacher praises them, then it's the adult judging what is valuable, what is good to do. And that all seems good and fine for a while until you get into Alfie's splendid list of 5 things - a child loses their intrinsic motivation for lots of things and instead aims at guessing what the adults want and then fulfilling that.

It's all there in the education research - praise, rewards, stickers, grades, qualifications become an end in themselves (= a bad thing) rather than a mark of recognition for something a person wanted to do anyway.

This doesn't mean UP parents are po faced. It means that it's the child who sets their own goals and decides when it's time to celebrate. They retain their intrinsic motivation.

Gratitude when someone helps you is not the same as praising them.

Oh yes, that's what they are doing in ds2's class. So they have a cool wall, and the child elects a bit of work they've done to put up there. And they say why they liked it, and they can take it to the headmaster too and tell him why it was so great, and he agrees presumably.

ds2 told me one child chose a piece of maths work, and when they asked him why, he said 'because it took some doing and I got to the end eventually.' ds2 thought this was funny - but that kid had completely got what was valuable about his piece of work I think.

Hi, I am new here and I don't really want to upset anyone, but I am a little bit confused about all this. Yes I understand that from a 4 year old's perspective things look different BUT certain things are not negotiable- if he doesn't get ready for bed in time/ he will be tired in the morning, then he will be grumpy I will be late for work because he will not be able to leave the house in time. He will also be tired at nursery etc... I don't buy the whole flexible approach to be honest- in real life (mine anyway) there is no room for getting up at 9am instead of 7 or for having naps during the day etc... So I really need to make him do thing that he might neccesseraly want to do... Tough, but such is life.

By the way I have 4.5 yeaor old DS, who is generaly quite good, does thrive on rewards (for better or worse) but lately we have been struggling with getting dressed/ undressed/ teeth brushing etc. I think (and he has said as much) he is starting to realise he doesn't HAVE to do what I ask- and is trying to do what he wants to do. I've been looking for a new approach, as I am not really into punishment but I am finding it hard to deal with and end up shouting and then feel really bad about it.

has anyone managed to find a practical (and kind) way of making them do what they don't want to do?

Hello cumili. Welcome to MN.

Erm, yes and no.

I tend to point out consequences I think, as well as agreeing with their opinions. So in this instance I'd say,

'yes, brushing teeth and the whole bedtime palava is a drag, I agree. In fact it's earth shatteringly dull, having to do the same thing night after night. I sooo agree with you. Problem is if you don't brush your teeth, they all rot and fall out your mouth and then you look weird and gummy and you can't chew anything, and it'd be bizarre to have no teeth if you think about it. So all things considered it's probably a good idea to give them a scrub, even though it is quite a tedious thing to do.'

I do actually talk like this I don't think this rather fatalistic worse case scenario would suit all. Mine quite like it. They usually add to it. If I said that someone would say 'eugh, and nobody would want to kiss you and they'd think you were a crone and you could only eat soup' and we'd all consider that for a moment, and then pick up our toothbrushes.

Cumili, have you read 'how to talk so kids will listen?'. It has lots of practical ideas for obtaining compliance without punishment, shouting or rewards.

cumili - no I haven't. I've found out about the Taking Children Seriously philosophy instead. Its approach to exactly the sort of thing you are asking about is really beautifully illustrated here

There are easier and happier ways of living than seeking compliance with a top-down parental agenda, however nicely one seeks such compliance