Unconditional Parenting in a nutshell (I know this is incredibly lazy)

[SuperBunny]

I am embarrassed to do this but I haven't been able to read the book and need some quick Dos and Don'ts til I can get hold of the book again.

I have read some of the old threads but was really hoping that some nice person could give me a couple of bullet points about unconditional parenting.

I will be very grateful.

So if they get a distinction in their grade 1 music exam you don't praise them?

TBH I hate all these bloody trends in parenting. WAY too much over-thinking from so-called experts. Kids behave well you say well done. They behave badly you tell 'em off. Simple as.

Children have been brought up this way for donkeys years. I don't see generations of people with poor self-esteem cos their parents loved them only conditionally, responding Pavlov-dog style, waiting for praise. Most people brought up in loving families who praised the good and punished the bad are confident that their parents love them through thick and thin.

It's only in the last few years years with the emergence of 'experts' with a vested interest in different approaches that parents have suddently thought 'Oh my God if I do it his way I might damage little Johnny's self-confidence/sense of self/belief in our love. I wish people would just stop over-analysing everything and get on with the actual job!

That's what I would do Nappyaddict.

If, after a couple of chances, my child still keeps playing up then I would go home from the playgroup or cancel the playdate. I would do this because it would be obvious to me that my child wasn't in the mood for being with others for whatever reason.

I might try a walk outside to calm him/her down or I might not depending on how bad it was or how fed up of the situation I was.

Titchy Of course you praise them if they have done well. Did you see my post to you further down the thread?

it's not a trend, it's quite logical if you think about it. it's how i naturally go about things. i also happen to like alfie kohn's stuff about praise in the workplace. i do that in my job as a line manager too, works great.

ruddy so if you had a spare quid but she had done something naughty a few minutes before you would still let her go on it? same if she wanted sweets or a toy or book or whatever?

If you asked her if she wanted to go home or if she wanted her friend to go home and she said no but carried on not playing nicely with her friend would you continue with the playdate/toddler group or not?

I read of a tecnique, don't know the name of it, but it's compatible with UP, it's "Say, Remind, Make it happen". The idea is that it's permissive to have to ask lots of times, especially since you're not using punishment when it doesn't happen. Obviously you have to be very careful what you apply the technique to though, to be careful it doesn't go too far the other way (ie authoratarian) if that's not what you want.

So e.g. toothbrushing, you can do the explaining bit, possibly this is after a few nights, she KNOWS she has to do them but she's hoping if she stalls you enough you might give in. So say it once, then remind ("DD - teeth") and if she still doesn't do it then you make the action happen (by doing it for her, in this case)

In the e.g. of the slide, you could say "DS, you may go outside but you are not to go on the slide." If he walked towards or started to climb the slide you would say "DS, I said no" and then if he did go on the slide you make sure it doesn't happen again by limiting his freedom in that area (since he can't be let to play for his own safety - or whatever the reason for not using the slide was)

what is it that's naughty? i don't really see things as naughty i see some behaviours as a consequence of tirdeness or boredom or frustration but dd doesn't do these so much as i try very hard to stop things getting that far.

i don't say no to things as a punishment for something totally unrelated. so..if she was tired so wouldn't walk at my pace in the shop and maybe sat down on the floor in a grump..i wouldn't then say well you can't have a toy then. that's just going to make her more grumpy and annoyed.

Ruddynorah - I think nappyaddict is referring to biting/kicking/pinching as some things that are naughty.

sorry Juule I missed your response - I was respponsing to flamingos.

So basically no punishment, no praise. Except sometimes you can praise....

ok. so i see those as related to tiredness or frustration etc, not a naughty thing in itself. we talk about playing nicely and what do other children do that make her cross, and which children make her cross and so on. she knows if someone hits her that you don't hit back, instead she'll shout 'don't you hit me X' in a loud voice. and she knows which kids are best avoided at playtime.

depends what you mean by praise really. if you mean 'great job!!' and give them a marble/sweet/sticker etc then no. if you mean sharing good news with other people..so maybe 'would you like to ring grandma and tell her your good news?' then yes probably. you want them to be pleased themselves, not because you're pleased. so (yes it sounds wanky) you don't want them getting their self esteem from other people.

Ruddy or Juuule do either of you have MSN? If so would you mind me adding you to talk more about this?

no i'm not but you can CAT me

Titchy I don't think I interpret UP as some others do tbh.
I think it's more to do with why you are praising or I suppose punishing. Imo (and I'm sure it's somewhere in his book) children can only learn to live as social beings by being guided by more experienced human beings, usually their parents.
Irresponsible praise and punishment is harmful. But praise and disapproval can be encouragement to behave in a manner that is socially acceptable and makes everybody's lives easier (including the child). This is what I've understood AK to mean. Not everyone's interpretation from reading some threads. I think it gets confused at times with TCS (taking children seriously) which seems to take the whole thing a lot further than I am able to do.

Ok, so is it ok to praise sometimes? Like if DS puts the seeds carefully in the holes rather than chucking them all over the garden, can I say, "Excellent, you planted those seeds very carefully"?

And, if he does listen and not go on the slide (which is in the allotment but in someone else's plot and we're had instructions not to use it - seems very unfair to me but it's theirs not mine so we have to do what they say) can I say, "Thank you for listening"? or "I know that was really hard and I am proud that you didn't go on the slide, even though you wanted to"?

And, is it ok to say:

"DS, if you continue lying down in the street, screaming and shouting, then we will be late home and you will not have time to play before dinner. Let's have a hug and go home" - it's not a threat, it's true. I can't stop time while he has a tantrum. But I can see how he might think "I am having a tantrum and mummy is saying I can't play with my toys"

I forgot to say thank you for the posts: Thank you

All sounds good to me, SB

praise: I think the place for praising is when your child is independently delighted by what they've just done. You are joining in the celebration, not leading it. But with the caveat that this is all extremely difficult when a child is intimately familiar with the Mickey Mouse clubhouse games (and similar) and doesn't consider any activity finished until they have been good-job-bed into catatonia.

so much conflict between children and parents is to do with the inflexibility of the adult schedule. Children have to go to bed at x o clock because parents have to go to work at x o clock. If there are structures in your family life which lead to daily conflict, then think loooooong and hard about those structures rather than about trying to shoehorn yourself or other family members into them against their inclination.

But I'm not a wishy-washy UPer, I'm a hard core proponent of the Taking Children Seriously philosophy

CherryChoc - I like that technique. I think I'll try it this evening. It would stop me escalating into full-blown shouty angry mode.

Children also have to go to bed at X o'clock because they have to go to school at X o'clock the next day.

Areana, I had similar difficulty with DS when he was 4.6. He has finally started to realise that when he daydreams and does things slowly and distractedly there is less time for the fun things with me. It helps that he is 6 now and starting to have difficulty getting out of bed on school mornings if he hasn't had his 11 and half hours sleep. All that patient reminding him what he's supposed to be doing is quite wearing though!

We are pretty strict on school nights and more flexible on the other nights. On school nights we do lights out x o'clock and if it has taken 20 minutes to brush his teeth then there is only time for a few paragraphs of the book we are reading to him, so be it.

DD is so much more focussed. Phew!

most children have to go to bed at x o clock because they have to go to school next day, but not all.

It's one of the reasons we home educate at the moment - in my family we'd all rather have the flexibility - and we always arrange social or other commitments for late enough in the morning that it doesn't put pressure on the evening before, including my flexi-time full-time work. [unbearably smugworthy employment circumstances grin]

Aranea, I think you are me and your dd is mine (except that I don't have a dd2).

My dd is adorable, she is wonderful, she is 'old fashioned' to use a description that I often hear, she can be utterly enthralled for half an hour by a beetle walking across the garden.

She is also utterly bloody infuriating if you are trying to achieve something within a given timescale - even if that something is something that she desperately wants to do (like one of only six riding lessons given as a birthday present, for example). Or, for example, if you are a teacher hoping that she might complete a piece of work that you are pretty certain she could do standing on her head.

I don't think that helps, but you are not alone!!!

i think you can use noticing language without adding the praise on, bunny, if you want
kohn does specifically say no praise iirc - it's a manipulative thing we do to get children to do what we want

with the seeds you could say "the seeds have all gone into the holes"
with the slide "you remembered that we aren't allowed on the slide"

or is that crap? i don't know

I'm never convinced by this. I know that I really appreciate it when people notice what I have done and make positive comments (dh is good about this, I have to say) and I'm not sure why it is different for children?

maybe because we were not brought up the UP way and so depend on positive comments from others to boost our self esteem, rather than having intrinsic motivation to do the right thing? [wink but serious also]