Unconditional Parenting in a nutshell (I know this is incredibly lazy)

[SuperBunny]

I am embarrassed to do this but I haven't been able to read the book and need some quick Dos and Don'ts til I can get hold of the book again.

I have read some of the old threads but was really hoping that some nice person could give me a couple of bullet points about unconditional parenting.

I will be very grateful.

I agree Hopeforthebestetc.
I am a direct person so if I want my DCs to eat a balanced diet I provide it and model it myself. I can't stand the thought that you give them free choice but all the time you are subtly manipulating them to arrive at 'your' choice-e.g. letting them get practically sick on chocolate and then prompting them to say that it didn't make them feel well or behave well!
I can't see how you know what you need to learn if you don't know what is there in the first place.

However, it has been a most interesting, thought provoking thread. I am about to go away for a couple of days and I expect that it will be over by the time I get back. I know that, after a very brief agreement with ommward, I will have said quite a lot that she disagrees with, so it is perhaps just as well that I will be away when she gets back!

Good luck PinkTulips- I should take heart from my link where the radical unschooler loses his cool, and hasn't got all the answers! It will probably better when you can get outdoors more and it will also get easier as they get older.

thanks pisces, your posts have been a huge help to me over the last few days.

I think it has been quite good humoured - at least no one has said that you shouldn't post if you don't agree, which is quite common!
I feel that I have learnt quite a lot from it. I think that it is like many of these things-quite sensible at the heart, but people interpret in different ways and some go to extremes.
SuperBunny has disappeared some time ago-I hope she found it helpful-perhaps she just gave up!

I've also found this thread thought-provoking, not least because it's made me question my own views on certain aspects of UP and TCS. It's been very helpful and interesting.

Enjoy your few days away, Piscesmoon. Not sure whether it's for work or play but hope it goes well for you.

Yes, always useful to think about how you parent.

provocative post warning

so...

if my child doesn't want to clean their teeth, I'm getting the sense that

conventional parenting says they don't know what's best for them - I'll force them to brush against their will

neglectful parenting says oh well never mind let's just hope they don't get cavities

consentual parenting says ok but i think oral hygeine is important, so let's find other ways of keeping those teeth healthy (vitamin D, hard cheese, water rather than juice, natural term breastfeeding, modelling tooth cleaning and keeping the equipment available for the child for if/when they change their mind, etc etc)

Where does UP sit on this sort of scenario - and I'm not talking about tooth cleaning, I'm talking about anything where you want your child to do X and they don't, and you think that, with your superior knowledge, they really ought to do X. I'm getting the impression from some posts in the support thread that the UP take on it is actually identical to the conventional for-your-own-good approach.

Am I in a muddle about that? Or would UP indeed look pretty conventional from the outside?

Sorry-apparently posted this on the wrong thread so am reposting here as a debate-or maybe everyone is bored stiff by the topic and wants to let it drop-in which case I will.

Just a question ommward-I am not really one side or another because I haven't really thought about it-just musing really.
Points to ponder:

Is it actually a good thing for a DC to have every single move negotiated so that the DC has no idea how to deal with conflict or manage their own feelings of anger?

The DC is never thwarted so they go to visit great grandma who has a red emergency cord -in a very visible tempting place-DC wants to pull it, however much she is distracted she wants to pull that cord-she can't pull the cord. There are lots of things that a DC wants to do in daily life and can't. Is it not a good thing to be told 'No' sometimes and to understand the word?

Does the mother always have to negotiate the wants of the DC? (even when they are tired and unreasonable) e.g. the mother has a nasty cold,has had very little sleep and a migraine coming on-can't she just say 'your nappy is dirty-mummy is tired and just needs to change it quickly'.

You have a DC who is plain contrary when overtired. You offer her a red cup but she wants the blue, you do the obvious to stop the tantrum and say 'of course you can have the blue if you prefer' -however she is in the state that whatever you do is going to be wrong-she has got past the stage of knowing what she wants. (You are very lucky if you haven't had this situation). You can't meet her needs because her needs are sleep which she is refusing to give in to.

The biggest problem of all-2 small DCs and one adult! The DCs want entirely different things DC1 will be upset if he doesn't have his way but DC2 will be upset if he does have his way. There isn't a solution to suit them both and if you say you won't do either they are both upset!

DC1 is a very quiet, calm, reasonable DC but DC2 is a noisy, boisterous DC who will argue that black is white. Is DC1 not in danger of giving way to DC2 all the time because they don't like conflict?

Having written it all down I think, on reflection, that I think a certain amount of thwarting and conflict is a good thing. One of my weaknesses is that I do a lot to avoid an argument and I wish that I was better at it-that is arguing in a constructive way. Part of family life is finding out that you can't have your own way, you will get upset and have to do things that you don't want to do (and it shouldn't always be the mother IMO). I prefer to be direct and say what I mean rather than manipulate my DCs into doing what I wanted to do in the first place.

I agree that your examples are things that I would probably do anyway ommmward but sometimes the parent is only human, has had a bad day and doesn't feel in the mood! Is it a bad thing for the DCs to recognise this?

thanks pisces - better to keep the debate and the support separate I think

I think there is a fundamental point about non-coercive family life that you are missing: "non-coercive family life" doesn't mean "I move heaven and earth to ensure that my child is never coerced". It means "I work hard to ensure that I do not coerce my child". Big distinction. Do you see it? That distinction answers most of your questions, I think.

If there are points of conflict involving other people and their property, then I am teaching my child the same moral code as anyone else as far as respect for "ours" and "not ours" is concerned. So if a child heads for the communication cord on the train, I should, if I've been doing my groundwork, be able to say "oh, that's not ours" (with whatever vocab and level of explanation are appropriate for the child in question), "let's do X instead". And, because the child is used to me being a trustworthy guide rather than someone who does arbitrary and irrational "No"s about whatever my bugbears are, they are likely to accept that judgment with a shrug - it's not me being authoritarian, it's just something that isn't ours and it's for us to play with. I'm not even judging their action, just letting them know that that, in my opinion, is a bad idea (after all, take the ghastly situation of pushing the alarm on a train. Nothing fun actually happens at the alarm-pusher's end, so it's not something you'd repeat for fun. Worst case scenario - a hefty fine, which of course you really want to avoid. More likely - a voice comes over the tannoy "are you ok in the toilet there?" and you say "yes, sorry, my 2 year old pushed the button while I was zipping up my trousers" and they say "no problem". Some of these ghastly impossible things are actually in the category of preferable-to-avoid-because-of-likely-embarrasment, aren't they?)

It gets smoother and smoother the more one practises this sort of living. And even out and about one has to constantly be on guard for acting as if Children Mustn't Splash in Fountains It's The Rule - inventing fake and arbitrary "no"s and pretending they have external justification.

As for parents having a bad day - of course we do. But that doesn't mean we shrug and say "oh well, I'm having a bad day so I'll be as mean to my children as I like". We surely aspire to something better, and try to get our belief systems and habits in place so that we attain something better most of the time.

it's not for us to play with

grr

Sorry-I was getting my threads confused!
I have come to the conclusion that I am in actual fact a UP although not TCS-I just didn't realise it had a name.
The only real difference is that when they were younger I expected certain things, and very often you get what you expect. Nappies were changed, clothes were put on, sun cream applied etc. I wouldn't humiliate an 8 yr old by taking them out half dressed so I wouldn't do it to a 2 yr old just because they are little. Some things are just not fair to give a natural consequence-it gets a bit Dickensian in my view. I think parents should show their human side and I warmed much more to the parent in the link when he had what I would call a 'normal reaction', and I think he was a better parent for it. The 'perfect' parent must be difficult to live up to!

"...very often you get what you expect."

Oh yes, Life is pretty easy if you have easy going, biddable, compliant children

I say this from the perspective of someone who was none of those things as a child, so my poor mother really did have to wrestle with the whole punishment/rewards or natural consequences, or common preference finding puzzle

(oy, what do you mean "no surprises there, then"??)

I don't think you know my DSs ommmward!!!

I was actually very easy going, biddable and compliant, which is why I am not too keen on all the talking and negotiation-I think it is unfair on the DCs who are logical and see the other point of view-especially if they have a brother who is none of those things and is uncapable of seeing reason or other people's point of view! It is all much more difficult with more than one DC.

I didn't know this thread existed aswell

Will post my question on this one aswell to see if anyone comes up with any new ideas.

What would you UPers do with a child that hates suncream and sun hats? I keep him covered up in a long sleeved/legged sun suit or a long sleeved cotton tshirt and linen trousers but obviously his face and hands are still on show. We try to stay in the shade as much as possible or not go out in the peak times but sometimes it is unavoidable. For example we are going camping in a few weeks with my cousins who will want to be at the beach all day every day so we can't escape into the shade.

How old is he? Will there be other children in the group?

ommward, did you read my post about my eyesight?

the problem being that I now as an adult am suffering from the fact that I was given far too much of a say in whether I wore glasses aged 7; the result is that I now suffer from constant headaches and am unable to do the thing I would need to do to help my disabled dd (drive a car)

my Mum tried to negotiate, I refused point blank; there was no way I was going to let myself be cajoled into going to see the optician

not only am I uncomfortable now, but I was very uncomfortable then too, because I knew deep inside that my stand wasn't very clever: I could have done with the reassurance of someone saying in a brisk cheerful voice: 'well, my love, I'm afraid you don't get to decide this one, I've booked an appointment and I'm taking you'.

consentual would have been good if I had been prepared to negotiate- I wasn't

leaving the decision to me would have been good if I'd had more sense- I didn't

the suncream in the park question: how would you play it if you had one lo who refused to put on his suncream and another one who burst into tears at the thought of not getting to go to the park because little brother always has to mess up?

or of a 5yo who is embarrassed at school by having to disrupt the lesson once again because Mummy spend half an hour negotiating with little bro about leaving the house for the school run?

I think it falls down as soon as you get more than one DC, cory. Pleasing one often means upsetting the other and if you play fair and don't please either they are both upset!
I see from the other thread that you have a 2 yr old NA. The natural consequence is to get a burnt face-which is why I am against the natural consequence idea (also a 2 yr old has no reason to connect the two).
If there are other DCs it is easier because he can just follow the lead. If not I would say that on the beach in the open it would be preferable to have hat and cream but you could get away with one. The hat will be the most difficult as you have no way of making him keep it on so I would go for the cream.
I would start with no cream and a game such as
'round and round the garden like a teddy bear (start with finger on foot), one step, two step (work up the leg) and tickle on the tummy'. Work up to different parts of the body and get to the face and have 'tickle on the face'. Hopefully he will like the game! Once he likes you doing it put cream on your fingers first and smooth quickly in.
Another suggestion is let him put cream on your face first and then you do his. Use a mirror to show him it is funny until rubbed in.
If all fails I would just grab him and smooth it in as quickly as possible. Keep calm and just state it needs doing and everybody needs sunscreen. Make sure he sees everyone else applying it. Keep calm and matter of fact with 'when you have the cream on you can go on the sand'.
He will get used to it. It is very boring and you can't wear yourself out negotiating it several times a day-once the routine is established it isn't a problem.
You could try letting him choose a hat. Hopefully other DCs might have one. I wouldn't give up on plonking it on his head but be prepared that he might take it off. If you put it on when he is busy playing he might not notice!

juuule does UP and she has 9 children.

Ommmward -"UP take on it is actually identical to the conventional for-your-own-good approach."

That's my view, too. BUT with UP it is a last resort. It's not the first port of call and is to be avoided if at all possible.

Just as you say for non-coercive family life

"It means "I work hard to ensure that I do not coerce my child". "

So even with non-coercive family life you understand there may be times when coercion is necessary.

The whole point as I understand it is that the child gets a say. They get to input their view and that view is taken seriously and not disregarded just because they are a child. If however, the child's view is not complete due to inexperience then the adult must take the lead and if necessary impose the appropriate action while educating the child on the whys and wherefores of that action.

So perhaps there isn't as much difference as I thought between UP and TCS.

Cory, re being late on the school run, I am sure someone is going to say 'that's why I home school'.

But I don't. And although I don't like it, sometimes you have to force the little one to leave the house on time so others aren't made late as a last resort.

But before that you would explain why it is important for elder child to be on time, give little one a say in how he goes to school ie walking or tricycle or buggy. Or choosing a toy to take in the car etc

From what I've read, I gather you and Piscesmoon both do this kind of thing naturally.
But so many parents don't consider things from little one's pov ie it is a PITA interrupting whatever he is doing to accompany older children to school.

NA.... in my view a natural consequence of not putting on suncream is that the child simply isn't allowed out in the sun. even if that means there's very little he can do like on a camping trip then so be it.

explain that suncream protects us from being burnt (it helps if you can discreetly point out someone in the shops or on the street one day and tell him 'that's sunburn, that's why we can't play in the sun without cream on')

buit i'm not really UP so maybe 'no playing out with no cream' is too much like punishment for some here. it's my stance though and ds1 is a bit younger than your ds i think and is happy enough to have cream put on this year as he's able to understand that it makes him feel better when he's out in the sun.

I think your DS is about a month younger than mine? DS is 2.11 but his understanding isn't very good. His friend who is 2.9 understands loads more than DS. He understands the natural consequences of quite a few things where as my DS just doesn't have a clue.

i agree absolutely with the poster who said about when you've done UP for a long time, your dc just accepts what you say, the example being the train pull cord. they get used to the fact you don't say no for no reason. they learn that you are their guide.

i find it difficult sometimes to answer queries re. how would you apply UP in this case because often the child in question hasn't been UPd from early so it's hard to relate to what i would do. with dd we mostly have a quick conversation and she obliges. but then i never say no for no reason