Unconditional Parenting in a nutshell (I know this is incredibly lazy)

[SuperBunny]

I am embarrassed to do this but I haven't been able to read the book and need some quick Dos and Don'ts til I can get hold of the book again.

I have read some of the old threads but was really hoping that some nice person could give me a couple of bullet points about unconditional parenting.

I will be very grateful.

I'm overcome ommmward!!

I think we probably have a problem with the definition of words.
Boundries to me merely means that DCs know where they stand and you are going to be consistent-you can't insist that they clean their teeth one night and let them not do it the next or get annoyed because they are rude to you one night and laugh at them the next time they do it. That because something bad is happening in their life they can't hit others. That they know they have to respect other's property, they can't go into their brother's room and take his teddy without asking him first. They can't empty the bookcase and tear pages out of books etc.
That if they have a dog it needs a walk every day-not just if they feel like it.

Very often DCs with a chaotic home life (parents on drugs etc) like school purely because life is predictable, they know what to expect and what is expected from them.

As a DC I wanted my parents to be strong-it made me feel secure. I had a friend whose mother was often in tears and I found that quite frightening. My parents gave the impression that they could cope with anything-luckily it was never really tested until I was older.

It sounds as if you are making progress PinkTulips.
Just keeping calm will make you feel better.
It isn't always possible. One day I got really annoyed with my 2, I was trying to get ready to do out, I just let rip and I suddenly realised that they were both trying not to laugh-the little horrors were recording me!!They played it back and we all had a laugh! It makes you think when you hear yourself-luckily it got lost but I dread it turning up one day!!

Keep yourself calm first
Give clear choices
Avoid confrontation
Separate the behaviour from the person
Protect their self esteem

A lot of it is attention seeking.
When mine were older I found it very irritating that I could go out and come back to calm with them both doing their own thing and within 5 minutes one was shouting 'Mum xxxx is doing yyyy'. I came to the conclusion that if I wasn't there they didn't argue!!

To put it into perspective, when DS2 was seriously ill aged 6yrs I longed for him to be his lively, argumentative self! Luckily he was eventually.

It was a most interesting article ommmward.
I notice that they have one DC and the baby hasn't really got a voice yet. I think they might find a big difference if they had 2 differerent personalities less than 2 years apart and that one wanted completely different things from the other.
I could have done it with my first because there was time and he had so much contact with adults that he was very like a minature one, for example he would happily sit and chat to a lady in her late 80's when he was only 4 yrs. With 2 close in age you get more down to child level, it is physically much harder and they are far less reasonable, in my experience. I have a friend with yr old twins at the moment and they are an exhausting handful-she only copes because her mother helps most days. I'm not saying it is impossible-just a lot more difficult.

Interesting article. The shopping bit particularly fascinating. The bit they don't explain is, how do they get a 5yo to balance their monthly budget? Or are they just so well off that it doesn't matter what she puts in the shopping trolley? It would matter to us.

funnily enough cory the money issue was what struck me the most about that article too... i kept thinking; 'well we couldn't afford to do that, or that, or that' and surely parenting your child in this way can't be the reserve of the wealthy?

i can't afford to homeschool, i'd love to but the reality is i need to go back to work as soon as i can... we're used to living on a budget and neither of us drinks or goes out much so we can scrape by for a few more years while i natural term bf my youngest and i'll be spending that time getting a degree but i cannot stay home with my kids indefinitely, we need money and we need 2 wages to ever have any hope of buying a house or having any spending money for ourselves.

so how do i balance the very rigid rules of public school with their rewards and punishments with UPing them at home?

on a positive note, today went well and after seeing the effects and hearing me explain the principles dp is on board to give it a tentative go, we'll see as we go how far we want to take it, i'm not sure every elemant of UP is suited to our family but certainly the basic principles seem to be working, ds1 is responding far better without the constant bribary and chastisement

I am interested in what she does when they aren't an 'island' at home. If they go out to dinner with granny and granny expects everyone to sit at the table-whose wishes come first? If they go to a wedding-at the reception everyone is expected to sit at a table-what do they do? If they visit grandad in hospital and are expected to sit still how do they manage without upsetting other ill patients.
My family has rules-we all stick to them. We sit at the table for a meal. We have the same food. We chat, we do not watch TV or DVDs while we eat. I don't do lollies and don't do snacks much, certainly not just before a meal. They don't put what they like in the shopping trolley (even if I could afford it). Life is a compromise for everyone-you have to fit in with others. I don't expect them to do anything that I don't do. We have agreed rules that make family living pleasant.
DS2 once came home from school shocked because he discovered, in a class discussion, that one girl didn't have any rules at home, interestingly enough he felt sorry for her-this was without me saying anything and I was somewhat surprised because he is the one that thinks we have too many!
One of my mother's strongest memories as a DC is playing out on a summer evening and everyone getting called in for bed but one girl was never called in. They all envied this girl until she explained that she would love it if her parents cared enough to call her in.
This isn't a rhetorical question ommmward-do you really believe that all this freedom makes a DC happy? What happens if the DC never makes what you, as parent, consider to be a sensible choice? In the article it was a girl-I wonder with a boy whether they would ever come around to the fact that playing computer games and eating junk food wasn't a good thing?

When I lived away from home for the first time it was very obvious who was an only DC and not used to communal living-I would think that a DC who is used to total choice would be difficult to live with.

I try to be objective and see things from the other side but as a DC who loved school so much that I am still there, I find it difficult! It all seems to call for a huge level of maturity. My idea is that I guide them and they develop their own self discipline. I am afraid that my general view is that they can do it their own way when they leave home. Interestingly DS1 is doing it very much my way-he lives over 100 miles away so he has complete free choice.

Yeah, I've often wondered over the needs-of-other-people scenario.

Particularly as we spend the summer holidays with my parents in a small cottage on an island, together with my 3 brothers and their extended families. The children would be devastated if we didn't go, but if anyone is to retain any sanity there needs to be a fairly strict timetable for meals/use of bathrooms/quiet times etc. And my parents are knocking on and need a certain modicum of rest and quiet. There is also only one cooker, on which you can use either two rings or one ring and the small oven at any one time: anything else will blow the electricity. Great exercise in compromising and adapting! But it's fun

As we have disabilities in the family (see above posts), a lot of compromising is enforced on all of us in our daily lives anyway. Ds has spent a lot of his young life in waiting rooms, waiting for big sister's hospital appointments. If I can't get someone to look after him then he doesn't have a lot of choice about that. Nor does he have any choice about the fact that halfterm activities are determined by whether dd has a flare-up.

And then there are the needs of other people: dd's best friend has just lost her mum and needs treating gently, my MIL has terminal cancer and needs visiting in hospital; we have also needed to spend a lot of time clearing out her house for sale. Of course, there are times when the children don't want to show this amount of consideration for each other and for other people. But they have to. Other people need them, just like they need other people. We're a community.

I feel that by the time I had my first DC I had had years of experience of life. I know that lack of vitimin C causes scurvy etc and I plan meals accordingly. A 4 yr old doesn't know this. I feel that in the article there is very much a hidden agenda-the parents are expecting that the DC will eventually tire of the choc bars and go for the healthy choice and that the DVD will become unimportant and they will be too busy with activities to bother. At what point, if your DC exercises her choice and sits still all day eating crisps and chocolate and balloons into obesity, does it become child abuse? Is it more controlling to cook a balanced diet and serve it at a set time, than to leave it to them and appear to give them free choice but angle it to get the result you want in the end? Or do you genuinely take it to the logical conclusion and not care if the result comes out the opposite to what you want or expect?

I shop on a budget, I cook healthy meals from scratch so I plan them and use left overs-there is no money for everyone doing their own thing.

I don't think that many UP people are so relaxed about food. The one I know is a vegetarian, grows her own food and would probably have apoplexy if her DCs had a McDonalds.

Are parents not allowed to have strong views?
I am absolutely against TVs in bedrooms and have held out over peer pressure. Is this wrong?

What happens with UP when they get to teens and want to go to all night parties whan they are only 14 yrs? Or do you just assume that by 14 yrs they have made all the 'right' choices and are doing what you wanted them to do all along?

What happens if you have a plain 'difficult' DC who is very self willed and unable to see or listen to reasoning?

I am not being difficult. They are just some of the questions that pop into my mind.
I don't think I could do it because I would most definitely have the hidden agenda of 'your choice but I expect it to come out my way.

I think that most people's lives are like that cory. I also think that parents in the article have it easy with one DC (I don't count a baby-his demands are easily met),plenty of time, obviously plenty of money, no sick relatives to be cared for etc.
If they were PinkTulips with several DCs and a limited budget exhaustion would set in.
What happens when DC1 is watching her DVD and her brother screams through it. When she is playing with her toy and brother wants that very toy at that moment and sees nothing wrong with seizing it? If one thinks he will hit the other over the head with a tennis racket? Surely at some point you have to get down to a 2 year olds level, look them in the eye and say 'NO! You are NOT to do that-we do not hit a baby!'

I think this thread has moved away from UP.
From ch.9 in Unconditional Parenting - Alfie Kohn.
"Naturally, the extent to which we give them those opportunities will depend mostly on their ages: I'm not saying a three-year-old should decide whether to get vaccinated."

Also,
"On occasion children will do things that are absolutely unacceptable and we simply must thwart their intentions. They may experience our intervention as a punishment, which makes it harder to address the underlying issues calmly or to avoid damaging the relationship. For that reason, the use of coercion is a last resor, a strategy to be used reluctantly and rarely."

And there is more in a similar vein in the book.

From an earlier quote:
"Positive feedback that is perceived as information is not in itself destructive and indeed can be quite constructive, educationally speaking. And encouragement?helping people feel acknowledged so that their interest in a task is redoubled?is not a bad thing"

Praise?

So, for me, AK and UP does allow for praise and punishment but after other avenues have been explored. My interpretation of his book is that it highlights other ways of looking at situations with a more mindful approach rather than automatically reaching for a carrot or a stick which can have potentially detrimental effects.

In another part of the book:
"If we are not comfortable letting a twelve-year-old attend an unsupervised party, and if that decision provokes bitter resentment, perhaps there's another part of his life where we can offer him more control."

Seems to imply that the 12yo has been prevented from going to the party. So AK is not averse to stopping children doing what he thinks they shouldn't be.

I think what he is trying to say is that parents can step in and have the final say but to consider whether what you are asking is reasonable or essential.

I'm not so good at explaining this. It's much better in the book. (although there are some parts that I find a bit dubious, but not many).

that sounds rather sensible, juule, and exactly what most of us would do instinctively anyway

it was some above posts that seemed to imply that no praise or punishment must ever be used

and that link to the unschooling family, where they let the 5yo decide what goes in the shopping trolley

but Alfie himself sounds more middle of the road

I don't think either piscesmoon or myself are into sloppy praising for everything or constant doling out of threats of punishment.

I even felt a sticker chart was too much for me.

I must read AK - he sounds far more sensible than I thought and I agree with everything that you have quoted. I go from a baby having everything decided for him to the 18 yr old deciding everything for themselves and the move between is very gradual, a step at a time. If you spend a lot of time with your DC you should be able to intuitively know their needs. DCs are very different and you can't treat them all the same-they don't all need the same. To my mind the parent has to have the final say and you have to be unpopular. I think things should take a natural consequence. If a baby tips his drink over I assume he is experimenting but if a 4 yr old does it I would get them to clean it up-whether they like it or not.

I think that the people in the article have a very clear idea of the DC they want at the end and although they appear to be giving freedom they are very cleverly engineering it to turn out the way they want. I think they would be devasted if they produced a selfish monster. Is it any better to be direct and do it your way, than to appear to give freedom that has a hidden agenda?

It is a very interesting topic. I think it is strange that it doesn't get many replies but that a thread 'my cm gave my DC the wrong sort of pasta' will run for days with hundreds of replies!

I only ever used a sticker chart in the summer holidays to get my DSs to read! Each book read got a sticker and so many gave a reward. It was desperate measures!

I haven't needed to give punishments-we go for natural consequences. We also talk about it and reach a compromise-not always easy.

I noticed that piscesmoon was the only person who answered my question- how would you deal with a child who actually wants to hurt another child due to circumstances over which you have no control?

what would the radical unschooling approach be to this?

Our local library did that, Piscesmoon.
The problem I have with it is that the children pick the books with least pages, biggest print etc. so that they could complete ten books, get ten stickers and so get reward.
Not really encouraging a love of reading, just encouraging racing through the easier-to-read books for the reward. I suppose it got them into the library, though.

Presumably it worked for you and your ds but then you probably did it on a more personal level than our library.

I'm new to UP, but think that it is worth being aware that people may of course interpret it in ways that are not as originally intended by the writer (although it may be working for them).

As I mentioned, I've been very inspired by AS Neill's writings on education and parenting - he describes in a few places being totally mortified when some parent came along to Summerfield for a meeting bringing along their child who jumped all over the sofa, banged the piano through the conversation and then the parents saying aaah, look, a totally free child brought up on your philosophies!

Cory, re violence, have you been following this thread where Fillyjonk is discussing the same problem.

I have, Takver, and I take a very similar approach. My point was that my experience has been that when a child has got to this point they are actually relieved to find an adult who is strong enough (physically or mentally) to take charge.

Which is not unconditional or leaving a decision in their hands- but recognising that there are decisions they can't take.

The other taking-charge point we have had in our house has been over dd's medical treatment. Naturally, she would rather not go to medical appointments, particularly not if she suspects they are going to hurt (as they often do)- but I remember how royally I messed up over my own trip to the optician's- and I know in her case the issue at stake is far far more serious. If she has to have that next knee op, I shall be there to ensure that she puts the gas mask on.

thanks for that juule

have just ordered a copy of his book so hopefully that will give me some clearer ideas of how this should be implemented, i think TCS and UP have become a bit intermingled on this thread and for those of us that don't know one from the other it's hard to distinguish which of the methods discussed are taken from which plilosophy/technique

That sounds really sensible to me. There are times when all of us, adult or child are not in a situation where we can sensibly make a rational decision.

I struggle with some of the outcomes of really radical non-hierarchical behaviour amongst adults as well as within families - that point at which I just want to shout LOOK, I know that you are not telling me what to do, and that you are not in charge, but you have been in this situation more often than me, you have had more experience of it, and will you just tell me what you think would be the best thing to do right now QUICKLY!

Sorry, last post replying to Cory

pmsl takver... i'm a bit like that too, there's times where i desperately need to be told what to do or have a decision made for me

Thanks for posting those extracts Juule.

I wanted to do that, but I've mislaid my copy. Bad news because I was using an unpaid bill as the bookmark!

Would you be able to post the 8 or so headings from that chapter about principles of UP?

Cory, I agree, you and Pisces certainly don't come across as the sort of people who would bandy praise around sloppily. But when you observe other parents, there are lots and lots of occasions where people say 'oh what an amazing drawing' without even looking at it. Or 'go and play on the swings, you like the swings' when the child feels like sitting on the bench next to the parent observing for a bit.

Do you mean these:

1. Be reflective.
2. Reconsider your requests.
3. Keep your eye on your long-term goals.
4. Put the relationship first.
5. Change how you see, not just how you act.
6. R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
7. Be authentic.
8. Talk less, ask more.
9. Keep their ages in mind.

10. Attribute to children the best possible motive consistent with the facts. 11. Don't stick you no's in unnecessarily. 12. Don't be rigid. 13. Don't be in a hurry.

The thing is that some don't seem to make much sense without reading what they are referring to.