Unconditional Parenting in a nutshell (I know this is incredibly lazy)

[SuperBunny]

I am embarrassed to do this but I haven't been able to read the book and need some quick Dos and Don'ts til I can get hold of the book again.

I have read some of the old threads but was really hoping that some nice person could give me a couple of bullet points about unconditional parenting.

I will be very grateful.

I think the problem is that you have really got your hands full PinkTulips and they are taking advantage of the fact that you are physically very busy just coping.

It is very different with one DC. I had an only for 8 yrs and in many ways I suppose I was doing many of the things ommmward is suggesting, but it was easy. I was a single parent with just the two of us and plenty of time because I was a SAHM and I could do all housework etc after he had gone to bed. I don't think of it as a method, it is just my personality-I don't expect that I ever did say 'good boy' for standing up but all my body language would show that I thought it was a good thing. I still think that ommmward is underestimating how many non verbal cues she gives her DC. The only way to take an objective view would be to have someone film you in the day-I think you would be surprised.

(I still don't see why it is acceptable for the football coach to say 'wonderful play I am making you man of the match' but not acceptable for the parent to say it-when they are both coming from outside the DC)

When I had my second it was already a DC orientated house. DS2 copied DS1 and hero worshipped him. DS1 had hated being an only, and wanted a brother for years and so spent a lot of time amusing him.
After a very short gap DS3 came along and just copied the others and fitted into the routines. DS1 got dressed quickly, went to bed without trouble and this was just the norm for the others-it was what 'big boys' did and they wanted to be 'big boys'(without me mentioning it)

DS2 and DS3 argued a fair amount but most of it was play fighting-boys are very physical and they also played well together.

I am only putting all that Tulips to show that I had it easy really. Your situation is much harder and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. Some DCs are just plain difficult.

It has always amused me when parents have had a very well behaved PFB and put it down to their parenting skills and then have DC2 who is completely different and it doesn't work! Very common, in my experience.

I think that you just have to be a 'good enough' parent. As long as you give them love, security and time you can't go far wrong. A friend had 3 DSs under 5yrs and they were a nightmare-they ran rings around her -but they are now lovely young men!

Whether you praise or not, negotiate or not doesn't really matter in the long run. The love and communication are the important things.By the time they get to teens you can have a good laugh about the toilet rolls!!

Pink - I'd love to chat with you about this, but perhaps somewhere less public. What are your initials again? Then I can send you a message on fb, assuming you're on the swampy lady's friends list. Or else, if you leave a comment on my blog here then I'll have your email address and we can chat a bit more privately that way

PinkTulip - I think once you have exhausted all the options and they are still running you ragged, then I think it's time to show your displeasure. I would probably have raised my voice to get their attention. If they are not used to you shouting then they will respond quite well. I would then be firm and go about doing what you want done. Get the 2yo ready for bed and then the 4yo. Get them into bed and then depending on how they are offer a bedtime story. Once you have achieved what you want to achieve ie into bed with nightwear on and them settling down, then everyone can be nice again.

You see this is where I'm happier with UP rather than TCS as I'm not sure how TCS would have dealt with this.

It can be like living in a whirlwind with several small children. I had 4 aged 5 and under and yes they can run you ragged if you let them. But everyone is much happier if you keep some order. You are entitled to not be at their beck and call all the time.

I also don't think it's a bad thing that children learn that mum becomes a ratbag if she's tired and pushed too far. Natural consequence?

I agree HopeForTheBestetc.
I am very anti embracing someone else's 'whole system'-whatever that whole system is. I much prefer a bit of mix and match, trial and error and finding what suits you. If like Ommmward you passionately believe in your 'system' it will work for you. It isn't the best system for everyone and it won't work for some people. I think that my DCs are better with a mother who has her own natural reactions - giving praise comes naturally to me and I am a very direct person, I am not going to pussyfoot around negotiating getting dressed-I haven't got the patience! If the method works for you then you should use it.

"I also don't think it's a bad thing that children learn that mum becomes a ratbag if she's tired and pushed too far. Natural consequence? "

Another thing that I agree with 100%. It doesn't do DCs harm to know that you have rights and feelings!

PinkTulips-I wondered how much time you got for individual attention? Mine had 20 months between and to start with we treated them as a 'job lot'-same bedtime and story etc. We then found it worked better if the older of the two had an extra half hour and they had their own story. It also helped if DH or I took one out on their own. Giving some responsibility also helps.

There is no "system" in which I passionately believe.

I'm interested in PHILOSOPHIES of consentual family living, including but not limited to TCS, Unschooling, autonomous HE, NVC, mindfulness coming out of the buddhist and other traditions... I am open to good ideas from many different source (among which I'd include Alfie Kohn,although I don't agree with all his ideas)

I follow no system. A philosophy is a very different thing from a system or method.

I'd be really grateful if you could manage not to make assumptions about my beliefs, my application of some fantasy "system", or my family demographic and dynamic, pisces.

I have to say that I think Ommmward is getting some unfair remarks. I, too, tend to feel more empathy towards certain philosophies such as Ommmmward mentions. It can mean a whole shift in the way that you view how you deal with things. It doesn't mean, for me, that I am unable to review how things are working/not working and whether something makes sense or not.

Sorry ommmward-I thought you were embracing the whole of TCS and saying that for all parents and all DCs you shouldn't praise your DC for things like standing up.I am all for everyone having their own philosophies-I just don't like the assumption that it is better. (I apologise,I expect you are going to say that you didn't say it was better-it was just my assumption-it was the way it came across to me). I have my own philosophies-quite strong ones that are a 'pick and mix' of lots of things. I don't expect them to suit everyone.
The point I was trying to make ommmward is that because you have a strong belief in your philosophies, it will work well for you and make you a brilliant parent for your DCs. It wouldn't work for me and it would make me miserable. However I am not damaging my DC because I tell them to get dressed quickly or that I love their painting.

No Pisces. A philosophy is not something which WORKS or DOESN'T WORK.

A method is something which WORKS or DOESN'T WORK.

I don't act in accordance with my philosophy because it WORKS or DOESN'T WORK, I act in accordance with my philosophy because I believe it to be the morally right thing for me to do. We all act in accordance with our belief set, and when we don't it hurts us (cognitive dissonance).

And I DO think that consentual family living is morally better than non-consentual family living. If I didn't, it wouldn't be a part of my belief set. Logically, we might just as well be having a discussion about socialism versus libertarianism. By definition, one couldn't embrace one without rejecting the other, and any pick-and-mix wouldn't be either but something else again, needing another label maybe, if one was interested in labels As I said before - I am not a relativist. I don't believe that a-taste-of-the-slipper family life is morally equivalent to consentual family living. I equally do not think that a family where punishment+rewards is embedded into the framework of family life is morally equivalent to consentual-family living. I might be wrong about which is morally superior, but I don't think that they can be ethically equivalent (although I might be wrong about that too, and am ready to listen to an argument that that is the case).

I'm sorry if my posting style is making this difficult to grasp. They are important distinctions, I think.

'And I DO think that consentual family living is morally better than non-consentual family living.'

I have no problem with that statement at all. I have a problem with it when you miss out 'and I DO think' and put it forward as a fact. (maybe you didn't do it and it was just my impression).
I may not have phrased the 'works-doesn't work' bit very well. What I mean is that if you believe that consentual family living is the way to bring up DCs then it will 'work' (for want of a better word) for you-if you do it, but don't really believe in it, then it won't be very successful. (I know what I mean but am still not sure that I am getting that one across)

I think that I probably do a form of consentual living. Where it differs is that, in the small day to day boring things, I think that I know best as an adult and will do it my way. If it is a life changing thing or a personal thing then I would think myself very fallible and would ask their opinion or leave it completely up to them.
I don't do rewards or punishments but I do praise-to celebrate, not control. If it is something they are going to do for themselves anyway, like learn to walk,I think it completely unimportant whether you happen to say 'good girl' or not-it isn't going to have any bearing on them learning to walk.

My understanding is that a philosophy is the abstract-it is ideas. You read about it and you bring in your experiences of life and you form your own ideas of what you believe in.
When you have children you take those ideas and use them in a practical way-they are no longer abstract-it is your method or system (substitute your own word if you have a better one)for your day to day life. If you find it 'works' i.e. is what you want for your family, it strengthens your philosophy and you carry on. You might find that it 'works' on the whole but you have to 'tweak' bits. You may find that although you thought it wonderful in theory, it doesn't work for you in practise and so you make big changes to the way that you bring up your DCs. Philosophies aren't set in stone and can change. So although a philosophy isn't a method or system-the method or system come from the philosophy.

I can explain what I mean better with teaching. I hated the old Literacy Hour (luckily now abandoned), for many reasons. I had to teach it. I did to the best of my abilities but I was never going to do it very well because I didn't agree with the philosophy behind it. A teacher who enthusiastically embraced the whole concept would teach it well. Last year I taught Literacy to a small class of yr5s (very able writers) for just over a term. I had almost free rein to do it in a way that suited me. I was enthusistic and the work produced was better than any I have got from that age group. They loved it. Last week I was in teaching the infants and saw one of my old class and she sighed and said "I wish we could go back to our Literacy lessons"-I sighed too and agreed-unfortunately it isn't a chance that will come my way again. I could have given my teaching plans to another teacher, and if she hadn't agreed with the philosophy behind them she could have followed them, but it wouldn't have fired up the imaginations of the DCs.

It doesn't mean mine is 'better'-just that it is 'better' for me.

I think it is the same with family life-you have to have a philosophy that suits you and it also has to suit your DP and DCs. If your DP has an entirely different philosophy on raising DCs you are going to have problems!

pmsl at the concept of my two not being used to hearing my voice raised

unfortunately the problem is i shout all day long some days with no result hence why i need to find other ways to deal with them. i don't think there's anything wrong with shouting but i would like to get to a point where i only need to shout when it's serious, atm it seems like i have to shout for them simply to hear me.

ommward... DS i'm a bit useless with facebook though as my internet connection tends to crash when i use it so message me on that and i'll give you my email addy

i think i need to read alot more about these philosophies before deciding what to do... i like the concept of reasoning with them and helping them think out solutions to problems and of letting them attampt things themselves and do things in their own time.

however i don't think it's right or fair to the child to use those methods for certain issues, for example, if left to it dd and ds1 would never brush their teeth, ds1 bites me when i try and brush them... but with dp's terible teeth i can't risk them ending up with a mouthful of rotten teeth like him and i doubt very much they're thank me for allowing that as adults (dp certainly resents his mother for not pinning him to the ground and forcibly brushing his teeth)

i'm torn between thinking it's a lovely way to raise children and being a bit cynical and thinking 'but isn't it a bit selfish of the parent, is it more to do with not wanting to be diciplinarian and more the child's friend, whether or not that is in fact best for the child?'

i suspect i'm firmly in pisces' camp of mix and match parenting really.

I go for a sort of rising scale of DCs choices.

If it was something big like emigrating-an under 5 yr old would have no choice (they have no concept of what it means-it would just be shown in a favourable light if we wanted to do it).5-6 yrs would have about 20% input this would rise to about 90% by 12 yrs-still to be over ruled if as adults we thought it was best. 12+ it would be a family decision and we wouldn't do it if they were set against it.

Simpler things like party invitations are
at 2-5 yrs they would choose but I would have choice, in that they may forget someone. 5+ they have a completely free choice.

I would give a 2 yr old limited choice as in 'which top do you want red or blue'-gradually as they get older they choose completely for themselves.
I think too much choice is confusing.

Somethings are non negotiable e.g teeth will be cleaned. (Our orthodontist told my 16yr old that if he didn't clean around his brace properly his mother would have to do it for him! He cleaned around the brace!)

I found that shouting didn't work PinkTulips, as you know it gets into a downward spiral!
The trick is not to get into confrontation.
It is like the classroom, you have to realise that the only behaviour you can control is your own.
Language is very powerful and just re phrasing something makes a difference. I am just about to go out, but if you like I can give some examples later. I went to a very good course about staying sane in the classroom and it really made me think about language.

See, that's exactly what i need pisces, thank you. If i could just get them to listen and understand we'd be flying.

Last night when i was tucking dd in i was trying to talk to her about not getting out of bed and causing a fuss as it was already late and she had playschool in the morning.

I talked nicely, said things in simple terms and wasn't cross yet four times i had to ask her what i'd said before she actually listened to me... she just doesn't seem to be able to focus on a persons voice when she's spoken to. Another example of this is when you speak to her she'll say 'what mummy?' and you'll repeat it in a clear tone with her looking right at you and she'll still say 'what?' again... her hearing isn't an issue, it's quite good, she's just incapable of concentrating when spoken to.

ds1 gets hyper and giggly and the more you try and speak to him calmly the more hyper and giggly he gets

I don't think it's selfish of the parent.

UP seems to me to be a lot harder work on the parent than 'do this and you'll get a new toy' 'if you do that again, no TV for a week'. Oh tough days I wish I could be comfortable with that kind of parenting

PinkTulips, it is really hard to find the right time for them to really listen to what you are saying. If you have to say it more than a couple of times it probably isn't the right time. Also if it's an issue you've raised before, they are probably thinking 'not that again!'

Sometimes I find asking questions helps. Eg "do you know why people need to sleep?"
Let her come up with the answers. People usually remember stuff better when they've had to think about it a bit.

i didn't mean selfish in terms of effort involved, i meant that possibly it can for some parents who do it be a case of preferring to be the child's friend than to be seen as the person always saying no and imposing rules. they sacrifice teaching the child valuable life skills in favour of being the child's friend.

i'm not saying all UP parents do this by any means, but i have to say the vast majority of rl parents i've met who followed a similar style of parenting did so because they never wanted to be the bad guy in their child's eyes.

which is all well and good until their huge child attacks my tiny one and the only intervention from the parent is 'now timmy, it's not nice to hurt [dd] is it?'... no apology to my child, no punishment or any comeback at all for the aggressor... which i don't feel is doing either that child or mine any favours. in the real world if we attack another person we get arrested and possibly end up in jail.... why is it acceptable to teach a child that it's ok to do so?

this is why following a totally UP method doesn't sit comfortably with me, i think certain things need to be punished and certain exceptional behaviours deserve a reward.

i understand AKs concept as far as i agree using treats and punishments to illicit certain behaviour or coerce the child into doing tasks isn't effective (i speak from experience!) but i do firmly believe a child who hits another needs more of a comeback than 'that wasn't nice' and that a child who does something special deserves a treat in recognition of that.

One circumstance we haven't discussed yet on the thread is what happens when a child is in a bad place and genuinely wants to hurt another person. And the bad place is something you as an adult have no control over. When they feel they have no desire to be fair, because life is treating them unfairly.

Have had reason to contemplate this, as both my dcs have gone through some very bad times (related to both of them in turn developing a chronic and painful disability) and reacted in this way; also, ds's best friend became very aggressive when his mum developed terminal cancer. There was a time when he was regularly jumping at ds (who is a much smaller and weaker boy) in the playground and knocking him down.

Naturally, all the adults around did everything they could, counselling was offered etc etc, but the harsh truth was that nothing could be done about the part that really hurt- we can't make ds's friend's mum come alive again, I cannot un-disable my dcs. And there is little point in asking them to empathise with someone else who seems to be getting such an easy ride, whose mum isn't dying, who is able to walk without pain. Nor can we offer distraction, because there isn't any

Ds's friend needed his teacher to say 'yes, I understand how things are for you, but you will still be punished if you knock someone done, the school will not allow you to do that.' It was reassuring for him, because he was in a place where he genuinely could not control himself and it frightened him.

The place we are in atm is that dd, who has been disabled and in pain for over 5 years is finding it incredibly hard to cope with the fact that ds has just been diagnosed with the same condition. His needs are a threat to hers, the diagnosing process brings back painful memories (she was disbelieved for a long time), his pain upsets her- she wants to hurt him! I came back last night to find she had taken the skin off his back with her crutch after a minor disagreement.

I did talk to her about empathy and then realised that I was making things worse: it's precisely the need to empathise with him that stresses her out. (it will come, just not now).

What did help was when I said quite firmly: 'yes, I know why you are upset, but if I ever catch you using the crutches as an offensive weapon again, I'll take them away and you will have to manage without them'. She is 12, but she still needs the reassurance that I am in charge and that I will be able to control behaviour that she cannot control herself.

She is much better at controlling herself than she was and I have no doubt that she will grow up into an adult who will handle her own difficult situation very well. But just for now, she needs me.

Children need boundries IMO. As a parent you often have to do the thing that it unpopular. On here you get people getting in a state because the DC seems to love the DP more or they say 'I hate you'-all quite meaningless-you just need a matter of fact reply like 'just as well I have enough love for 2' etc.

I think that you need to try concentration games with yours PinkTulips like playing 'My grandmother went to market and bought some apples' and the next person has to say 'My grandmother went to market and bought some apples and some icecream' etc so that you have a whole list to remember-anything that means that she has to listen.

First of all you need to stay calm yourself. If you breathe in for 7 and out for 11, it automatically calms you.

Language is never neutral; it will always trigger an emotional response in those who hear it, so it is better to generate a positive response rather than a negative.
If you get into a power struggle you are doomed from the start.

The body has automatic responses. If you hear an unexpected scream, your heart rate will go up. If a lion walks through your door you won't wonder where it came from, you will go into survival mode!
The brain is programmed from birth to follow patterns and make connections.
If I say to you 'I am going to give you one important instruction and I want you to follow it. DO NOT think of something blue', The brain automatically thinks of something blue!
Therefore rather than say ' Don't run' it is better to say 'walk please!'
Going with the positive is better than the negative.'We won't go out until you have your shoes on' isn't as effective as 'when you have your shoes on we will go out'.

Try and stay calm and logical. As soon as you, or the DC, gets into emotional arousal all logic is lost and you say things you don't mean.

Keep the focus on primary behaviour and try and ignore secondary issues.
If they try to sideline it as in 'Its not fair xxx was....' don't get drawn in just say 'maybe and...' get back to the main issue,this means that you acknowledge that they may have a point but not one you are interested in at the moment (you can discuss it later). This is very different from saying 'maybe but which is more confrontational and dismissing their point.

Use the I message a lot -as in 'if you shout I can't understand what you are saying. Please tell me again quietly'.
Or 'if you start fighting it makes me upset because I want to get the baby fed so that I can play a game with you.

Tactically ignore some behaviour and use the word when, as in when you are sitting down I will give you a drink. When you have brushed your teeth I will read you a story.

The broken record approach, gradually getting calmer is quite useful.

Distraction and humour are very useful.
Use body language to convey confidence.

Make consequences logical.

I hope it helps. It isn't possible to do it all the time and it often goes pear shaped! Just do the breathing and start again.
It's a bit like dieting-you can have good days and bad days!! Don't beat yourself up about the bad days.

I think separating yours PinkTulips and giving them individual time would help. When mine were that age DH and I agreed that taking one out was lovely (it didn't matter which one)but taking 2 out was hard work!

I cross posted with you cory-but I think that you have a very sensible approach. Some DCs have a lot more to deal with than others and you can't empathise without experience.They still need the boundries and someone in charge.

have to admit, it was the moment when I suddenly heard myself, spouting to dd about how she must empathise with ds re his disability- and then saw myself, the only one of us three who has no actual experience of living with that disability

I realised then there is no talking I can do so that dd will listen- but she still relies on me to keep her safe.

thanks pisces think i'll have to reread that a few hundred times til it lodges in my brain, it's facinating the affect simple little words can have on the human brain isn't it?

i agree about individual time, both dp and i really notice a massive differance in behaviour when they're seperate, unfortunately although they drive each other mad they also want to be in the same room doing the same things 24/7 [sighs mournfully]

i have been having huge success with ds1 since last night by simply removing him from the situation; first at dinner when he was throwing food around the room and wouldn't stop... i picked him up and plopped him in the kitchen to clean him up and he whinged for 20 seconds but then stopped, then again when they were in the shower and he was attacking dd, he kept at it so i just pulled him out, plopped a towel around him and he proceeded to crawl under the bed and play happily with his cars without complaint.

i didn't give out either time but just calmly moved him from one spot to another and he wasn't pushed at all... i'm !

Pisces - after the first sentence about boundaries (with which I vehemently disagree), the rest of your post was really helpful. I don't think any of the rest of your post follows from that first sentence about boundaries, though, so I'm not simultaneously accepting two incompatible things at once (phew!!!!)

Good lord. First Juule and now me applauding your posts. What on earth is going on?!

There's a really lovely article here about radical unschooling, which is another direction into the whole consentual living thing (starting with education and expanding to the rest of family life)

Could be inspiring.