Who else thinks unconditional parenting is a load of twaddle?

[Pheebe]

OK, now I have your attention ... Firstly I don't...necessarily...but have heard it talked about lots and have looked into it a little and have some 'questions'

How do you make it work in a real life family setting where things just have to get done? How do you make sure your kids make appropriate choices (seems to me you just hope for the best)? How do you avoid your kids growing up as selfish, self centered, spoilt? How do kids brought up this way deal with the rigid control systems of, for example, the school setting. Can the make the transition/separation between home and the outside world?

Hoping for a positive and useful discussion here not a tit for tat criticism of different parenting approaches.

Personally, having thought about how I parent it seems to the a mix of 'unconditional' (which I think would be better described as uncontrolling or some such) and so called 'sugar coated control' (which I think would be better described as directive??)

Anyway over to you...if anyones interested

'The punishment and rewards thing is basically behaviourist. Whilst it MAY get results in the short term, it's probably not the best way to socialise people'

Liz, a lot of people think that this is all Behaviourism is about. It's not!

Behaviourism is based on years and years of rock solid research. AK sure as hell isn't.

'Punishment' has a different techincal meaning in this field than it does in layman's terms. Behaviourism also acknowledges that reinforcement is the key to all desirable behaviour.

The key is finding what the child finds reinforcing, not what you, the adult believe should be reinforcing.

As advocated by Frost, I meant.

Who is Frost? Can't locate reference in thread.

Super nanny.

Oh right. Dunno much about her.

Keep it that way.

So behaviourism's rock solid research backs up punishment/ rewards does it?

One of the reasons I started reading Kohn was because my kids started saying "what's my reward?" when i asked them to put the compost out/ tidy their rooms etc. Exactly what Kohn predicts and what I don't want.

I have a problem with Kohn's actual solutions though. I don't really see how I can love and reason a six year old's propensity to destroy her brother's toys and refuse to tidy her own room, unless there is some kind of bribe/ punishment. I've tried the reasoning, but if she doesn't want to do it, how am I to get it done? And yes, I have looked at my demands and I find them reasonable. (Tidy room because otherwise we can't find things/ things get broken/ lost, compost because the kitchen stinks otherwise/ I run out of space to put more peelings in and it's not my job to do every single physical task in the house, etc.)

I'll be watching this thread with interest too.

Oh agree about supernanny, she's perfectly dreadful. Naughty step FGS. How the effing hell does that differ from the dunce's corner?

Liz
Little, the point is that that is not an appropriate reinforcer. The definition of a reinforcer is something that strengthens behaviour. In your kids case, a reinforcer might be your smile/happiness if it increases the likelihood of room tidying behaviour.

It is so irritating when people think Behaviourism is just about charts and stickers. It's not. These things can however be really useful when working/delaing with kids who don't respond to social reinforcement such as praise.

I (am salt) work with one boy who will do anything if you then draw him a picture of his favourite logo. It is a million times more reinforcing than a smile and a 'well done'.

Most people respond to a mixture of reinforcers. I partly work because it pleases me and other people, but the main reason is for the ££££.However, I will cook nice meals for my dh for nothing more than his smiles and praise.

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Most people respond to a mixture of reinforcers. I partly work because it pleases me and other people, but the main reason is for the ££££.However, I will cook nice meals for my dh for nothing more than his smiles and praise.

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My own dd will tidy her room and clean her teeth because she is reinforced by my smile and praise, but she will indergo tedious maths practice because she is reinforced by chocolate biscuits

The basic rule is that you,the person who wants to effect change, must be in control of reinforcers, whatever they may be.

Hope this makes sense.

Yes that does make sense.

I've decided that the sticker charts etc. are rubbish re-inforcers in the case of my DC's. Just like Kohn says, they change behaviour for the week we are doing the charts, then it regresses back to what it was before we did them. And I just can't be bothered to do them all the time, it would drive me mad.

What do people think of Kohn's assertion that time outs etc. can be read by the child as a withdrawal of love? I think for my DD, that is how she reads them, but DS doesn't. And also I have a problem with Kohn's "sugar coated control" business. There are times when I simply do want control over my children, and it's not because I'm a control-freak, it's because usually of their safety ("do NOT cross that road" - I don't have time to reason and explain why, I want them to recognise by my tone that they must absolutely obey me, or time constraints - yes I would like to have 30 minutes to reason, but the school starts in 8 minutes so can we please get out of the house NOW.)

Yeah - that's interesting, the road example. In fact, the more I think about it the more similar situations spring to mind. I'm pretty non-committal on all this crap, but nevertheless am still probably pulling to the AK corner. However, and straight away, I have to say I haven't read anything beyond extracts and stuff on his site.

I haven't read the book in a while so probably a bit rusty but I don't think that AK means that you shouldn't control when your childs safety is at risk.

There is noone keener than a properly trained behaviourist ie familiar with work of BF Skinner) on 'weaning' a child offstickers/food/charts .

The aim is for what we call 'natural contingencies' to take over, in other words, smiles and praise.

The aim is always to start thinking about cutting back on the stickers/food/charts asap.

A common problem is trying a technique then rejecting it saying it doesn't work