Very different siblings - "good kid" "naughty kid" HELP

[HairsprayBabe]

reposting from chat because i got no responses

We have 2 DC very close in age 18m apart - they are currently in primary school. One school year apart.

One child is very well behaved, will sit nicely anywhere we go, plays calmly, Listens, likes helping, never rude etc. Apologetic if behaviour is corrected. Not perfect of course but is generally a "good" child

One child is poorly behaved, doesn't listen, is rude, won't sit, plays rough, won't help, runs off, answers back, unpleasant attitude etc.
Default mode when behaviour is corrected is rage. Has moments of being sweet and lovely but - generally for example referred to as " a real character" at parent eve... aka "naughty"

Both are equally clever, both have been parented the same way. Low screen time lots of time out doors all the things you are "supposed" to do.

We were told they would grow out of the "bad" behaviour if we were consistent but they have been like this since they were about 2 and a half. We have done literally everything we have been told to do, we are strict, we follow up with consequences, we remove them from situations and nothing is changing and it is such hard work.

As they get older I am more and more worried that they are going to absorb everyone heaping praise on the other sibling while they have been cast as "the bad one" Equally I still want to praise and celebrate my other child for their achievements. I am really stressed about "good" child being overlooked, and "bad" child feeling like a black sheep.

Both children are happy and healthy with no concerns raised by professionals..

I don't know what else we can do, I feel like I am letting them both down.

Stop seeing them as a pair and patent them in the way each needs.

Get the so called 'naughty'
one assessed for ND - it might be worth starting the conversation with the school.

@discotoadstool I didn't mention whether it was older/younger child who has worse behaviour - we have asked about ND and school have no concerns just refer to child as "cheeky" "a real character" etc.

@Ohthatsabitshit I don't view them as a pair - we do parent them differently but we have "standards" that they both need to hold up. E.g homework needs doing, toys need to be looked after/tidied up.
It leads to more upset as "good" child ends up with generally an easier life because they aren't constantly being told off.
Equally I don't want the "naughty" kid to feel like they can just do what they want because I am not chasing them just because the other sibling doesn't need it.

@discotoadstool just saw your edit

I would go with looking at assessment too.
If you parent both the same and the one child still struggles (is failing to link consequences to actions) it suggests to me they may be struggling more than you and school might think.
For example mine cannot tidy up as an open ended task
Tidy your room for example means it won't get done but consequences led to tears frustration anger and self loading because they had "failed"
Assessment revealed that as well as ADHD and ASD they had difficulties with processing so anything with too many steps pushed them to complete overwhelm and then they could do nothing.
Now for a tidy up job we work along side them and talk them through the steps. Tidy your room too obsecure. We need to tidy your room I will help step one let's put X away. Step 2 is y and when we have done we will do xx

We are still working on it and actually in a very different place for various reason na but because school say they don't see and ND doesn't mean they are right. We learnt that the hard way.

@OrganisedOnTheSurface School have no concerns, GP won't refer in our area without school support. Private is inaccessible to us so I am not sure what else we can do.

I wouldn’t rely on school to indicate ND, many children mask at school. But I do sympathise, it’s really hard to parent fairly when children are so different.

@NerdyBird The only professional who was honest about how they thought they were really challenging was the childminder the year before they started school. I felt like that is the only person who has ever said - that's shocking behaviour without pussyfooting about.

Schools get this wrong all the time. Both mind are ND, though differently, one diagnosed by paediatrics v early on, so school had no say there (and tbh really weren't much help anyway). Youngest just diagnosed with severe ADHD, totally missed by secondary and primary, although blatantly obvious in hindsight, and after years with no help or support, the wheels have totally come off. You know there is something going on. You wouldn't have posted about it or be so worried otherwise.

I would go back to the school, ask for a meeting with their senco, have a clear list of concerns, and ask them to justify why they don't think there is anything else going on.

How old are they?

You don't say how old they are i don't think, but unless they are picking up on perceived differences, perhaps it's not a problem?

My eldest keeps saying younger sibling is the favourite. I keep having to say that they are individuals and we need to give them each what they need, not treat them exactly the same. To give some examples, if they are told off, youngest will immediately apologise and make good, eldest will complain and argue back and still be on about it +30 minutes later, so inevitably gets into further trouble. Another example, youngest is preparing for 11+ exam so currently getting "more attention" in eyes of eldest. But when I say to eldest would you have done this though, they say no way! Another example, eldest is super organised and i rarely have to step in, which is fab! Youngest needs more scaffolding to say get ready for school, which is objectively less excellent, although not a problem. Eldest then picks up why are we "helping" him more and says he's lazy. It is tricky! I try to be visibly being even, for example make sure I'm sitting with eldest to do homework even though it's not needed. But ultimately like I said at the start of this rather long paragraph (sorry) I tell them they're individuals and need parenting as such, it's not about favourites, or good kid naughty kid, in your situation.

Both are equally clever, both have been parented the same way

Both these statements are false.

No two children are 'equally clever' (what does clever even mean?), no two siblings are born into the same environment.

I'd start by looking at your labelling - you've got a favourite. And start parenting the individual children.

@Monvelo @LeopardOnEverything they are 6yr3mo in y1 and 4yr9mo in yR

"naughty" child complains they are always in trouble

Other child becomes shy about success - eg got a medal from a hobby and wanted to hide it rather than celebrate it. Hard to know if this is just personality or due to being worried about sibling

@tomorrowfollowstoday I don't have a favourite, that is a horrible thing to say. If I had a favourite I wouldn't be worried about the feelings of both of my children.

They are equally clever in terms of the rate they have learned to talk, walk, read, do maths etc has been the same.

They have been parented in the same way as in both have had low screens, lots of time outdoors, access to hobbies, we have the same rules, consequences and expectations for both of them etc.

Obviously every conversation I have with them is not identical but saying I have a favourite when I am clearly worried is unkind.

Sometimes you can get into a pattern where the "good" child finds it easy to stick to rules and so gets a lot of positive attention that way, whereas the "naughty" child finds this more difficult, but also inadvertantly ends up getting more attention from their disruptive/naughty behaviour. So they sort of give up on the efforts to follow the rules because it's a less successful strategy. It's not a conscious choice by the "naughty" child, it's just the way that human behavioural reinforcement works. Then because they both have each other to observe and "reflect" they almost lean into the different roles. You find this happens quite a lot in any family with 2 children - when one is in a bit of a phase of struggling with behavioural expectations for whatever reason, it's like the other one can sometimes go out of their way to show how good they are, but it tends to swap around, it won't normally always be one or the other.

When it is constantly one and the other in the same roles I'd probably look at some kind of support whether that's asking your GP about parenting courses, checking if everything is OK with "naughty" child (developmental, hearing, vision, speech, physical etc) looking into private family therapy/behavioural support/psychologist or whatever feels like the right approach. Family Hubs are meant to help with this as well.

Sympathies op, it is so so difficult so I would cut yourself some slack. You can’t blame yourself here, the child who isn’t behaving well also needs to take accountability. I must admit whenever I see adult posts from adults who say they were the black sheep, it’s possible that either their parents are indeed arseholes, or that they are. I’ve not seen once anyone accept the latter. You clearly are doing the right things as parents, so there’s not much else you can do. I would keep my eyes open to possibility of adhd, if they’re a girl and bright, primary school will be so easy for them if won’t be immediately obvious they’re not listening to a single word. It will become apparent in secondary though so just keep your eyes peeled.

You can't trust schools on the whole to spot neurodiversity or other types of special needs, and I say that as an experienced teacher. It is not in schools' interests to find anything as then they'd have to do something! The push generally HAS to come from the parent.

It is not true that a referral cannot be made if the school will not support it. It will just be harder.

If you don't already have a detailed diary of triggers, behaviour, incidents, school responses etc, start keeping one.

Are you able to say how old the child is?

I had similar with my children, OP: one never really gave me any worries and the other was a complete nightmare while growing up (but is so much better now). It's only now that my 'nightmare' has had a formal diagnosis of ADHD.

I always like @BertieBotts 's posts.

I was the "academic" "well-behaved" "no trouble" older sister of a close in age same sex sibling who really struggled academically and socially.

It is really difficult for parents and I can't say mine dealt with it fantastically. My sister's a really good parent herself though so there's that.

At least you are aware there's an issue, OP.

@Phineyj They are 4 and 6 - don't want to say which is which because I don't think it is an older/younger thing

The pathway in our area says it requires a statement from the school, so GP won't refer without the pathway. We have a children and families centre that does a parenting course but they only accept referrals for UC families or those with a diagnosis - we have looked into various things available in the area but we just come up against walls and while we absolutely will push back that doesn't really help us in the immediate day to day.

You have labelled your children good and naughty.
You will be responding to them differently, that's human.

They are equally clever in terms of the rate they have learned to talk, walk, read, do maths etc has been the same. This is not credible. No two humans are identical.

They have been parented in the same way as in both have had low screens, lots of time outdoors, access to hobbies, we have the same rules, consequences and expectations for both of them etc. This is not credible. No two siblings are treated the same - the first is a first child. The second is a second child. The parents are different second time round! The second never gets the undivided attention the first got. The second never gets the shock of a new sibling. These are not criticisms, just realities.

The lack of reflection about whether there could be any difference between them or in their environment or in your responses is quite unusual.

ETA: of course need for diagnosis could be at root of everything. But the idea they have identical brains and received identical treatment is not realistic at all.

The "naughty" one is possible neurodiverse. Teachers and professionals will happily say a child is fine despite having challenging behaviour and sensible parents with good behaviour boundaries.
You can drive yourself nuts trying to parent a challenging child when the stress of school might be causing problems and standard parenting techniques often don't work on ND children.
The collosal effort I spent on trying to cope with my younger child nearly killed me. Yes, finally diagnosed with autism at 17, only took fourteen years from first GP apt.
Listen to your gut. You probably know what you're doing and your child probably needs more / different support. They'll probably make you do an idiots guide to parenting course before you get even a sniff of actual support, but at least you'll be on the right track.

@Monvelo I have labelled them that for the purposes of this thread, that is not how I think of them in daily life.

Please go away this isn't AIBU and this fucking thread is my reflection. I am not looking for your judgement or attitude.

The weirdest advice I ever saw for siblings was to treat any conflict between the two as joint behaviour and not trying to establish the guilty party or instigator. Simply tell both such behaviour is not acceptable. It may work in some situations. I am not saying to try this. My own kids did just grow out of it and are pleasant adults.

Children are born with different abilities. If you parent children in exactly the same way they’ll still turn out different because they do have their own personalities and things they are strong at.

your style of parenting is working for one kid but not the other.

suggestions:

find something (anything!) the “naughty” kid is good at. Try to reframe the plays rough and won’t sit as “has lots of energy” and channel that energy into something. Physical exercise being the obvious suggestion. Swimming, running, football, rugby, etc.

your list of “good” behaviour includes a lot of “does what is told”. This is great in a young child, independence of thought can be better in a teen or adult. Long term you do not want a compliant adult you want an adult that can take decisions for themselves.

@hairspray I'm hoping you tagged me by accident as I've tried to give a helpful reply based on my experiences. I've not judged you. I've said it's tricky. I've only used the naughty language because you did and I understand it's short hand for this thread. That's me done.