DD12 lies and hides things every time she's asked to do anything

[drspouse]

Whenever DD is asked to put away clothes she hides them - in one of the many cupboards we have e.g. where I keep my out of season clothes, under her bed, in the attic, many places, too many to search.
She has form for this with every task she's asked to do yes I've done it but she's walked out the room with something she's supposed to put away and she leaves it on the floor.
She's doing it at school as well, her first instinct seems to be to lie rather than actually do the job.
Screen time is a privilege not a right but she doesn't seem to care if she gets it, and usually lies about having done her jobs around the house. We can watch her if she's hoovering etc but we can't search every cupboard every time she has clothes to put away!
Full story here is that she's 12, she has done this ever since she worked out how to lie, she's been diagnosed with ADHD and we're on a waiting list for medication.

Why shouldn't she do her own washing? She needs to learn to be independent and she can manage all the steps. DS who has much larger difficulties was doing it at her age.

I think the way you're parenting someone who has been adopted is deeply inappropriate - both the lack of nurturing and the comparison to your DS.

The lack of nurturing is really awful. You're not giving your child what they need NOW for fear of what they need LATER.

She's potentially very sad and angry.

The child in question is adopted.

The OP's approach is not appropriate, and clearly isn't working.

I don't see how continuing to parent in a way that isn't working is impressive.

I apologise in advance if I sound harsh, but I have found your posts a really uncomfortable read - I wasn't going to reply at all, but then I can't stop thinking about your daughter, and I wondered if there is a tiny possibility you might actually listen to what i am sayinrg.

Uou speak about her really very disrespectfully and unkindly, for a parent talking about their own child. You seem determined to put the worst possible construction on all her actions, almost mocking her stupidity.....

I wonder if she picks up on the contempt you seem to have for her? (And to be fair, for others too - you have reacted really quite rudely to some posters' suggestions, because you are a scientist and only like theories you feel have been sufficiently researched, ignoring the fact that individual behaviour doesn't work quite like that). And does things deliberately to spite you? I have to admit I'd be sorely tempted in her position.

Also if you say things like "screen time is a privilege, not a right'." That very phrase would make me want to never do anything you told me ever again ..... It's a power-trio. Nobody crows like this to their children! And she's 12 for God's sake, not three.

And if she doesn't like wearing glasses, could you not get her contacts? Lots of kids don't like wearing them, it hardly makes her Damien from the Omen.....

This is your child! What do you love about her? What is amazing about her? What makes you feel privileged to have her?

(Don't tell me, tell her. The more loved she feels, the more likely she is to do what you ask her. )

Oh, and the majority of the huge number of12 year olds I've worked with over the decades don't do their own laundry. I don't have any concrete research to prove this so you may choose not to believe me, but it's true.

So insisting your child does this, when she has proven she cannot currently cope with it, again seems cruel. Do it with her if you must. But be making her do it you are setting her up to fail.

I do wonder, in fact, if feeling different is at the root of a lot of her problems. Not many 12 year olds have parents who say things like "screen time is a privilege not a right" - do you treat her like a much younger child, and do other things that might hugely embarrass her?

Wow! A huge thank you to everyone who has posted their own experience and tips and advice… I am place marking for a proper read as I have found at least 3 ideas to support my own 12 year old DS. He seems to work well with lists and I’ve considered a list of how to tidy his room… it’s actually tidy now so I’m going to take a picture of it and write the list!

I think the biggest challenge of ADHD is to accept that just because they ‘should’ be able to do something doesn’t mean they can… and made worse when they have an older sibling with same condition that can… and for me, I struggle to maintain consistent standards and routines and lack the capacity to check and double check…

I would imagine some mixture of:

Doesn't hear
Doesn't process
Not a priority
Doing something else
Where is bag anyway
Who made you the boss?
Will do it later
Don't actually like clean clothes (smell funny, not of me; feel funny)
Solve problem in fastest way (stuff in random place)

I'm afraid my 59 year old DH (almost certainly AuDHD like our diagnosed daughter) is still rather like this.

Is the school meeting her needs? Hopefully she has an EHCP? If so, when was the most recent annual review?

DD has an EHCP and the reason I got it was in large part so I'd have school placement alternatives if it all went tits up. Fortunately she is doing OK in core subjects and well in some practical ones. But I have taught (well tried to!) kids who couldn't engage at all and ultimately they may need another placement.

Also, maybe this is too obvious to state but if she's not able to access the English, Maths and Science lessons then the resulting homework is probably impossibly hard for her?

I'm not sure how old she is, but DD's just finished year 8 and the English is HARD and the Maths and Science no picnic either. And I got As in GCSE in those subjects back in the day and have an A-level Maths too.

She sounds very much like my DDoy my DD eventually got the diagnosis of AuDHD.

I took the opposite approach and figured she needed the support for longer. If I wanted her to put away clean clothes at that age she would just put yh back in the washing basket and lie. So I was having double the work. She’s 18 now and I can reliably get her to put away washing and remake her bed if I’ve stripped it and washed the bedding when she’s out.

Im lucky in that the DC left for School after I left for work so I could spend a few minutes in her room making the bed, taking away dishes and putting clothes away.

One thing she really appreciates is me cleaning the room if she’s out for the day and putting fresh flowers in there.

You know their brains take so much longer to mature, if she’s 12 she’s probably operating as a 9 year old yet having to navigate high school, high school work and friendships. She’s probably feeling very lost.

I wanted our home to be her safe space without conflict and it’s paying off now she’s in her late teens. She has the beginnings of what could be a good job, she has a stable relationship with a good BF and she’s happy to chat and spend time with us at home.

I too have ADHD and really struggled with executive function. I can remember my M constantly being frustrated and telling me things like I was messy or untidy. That’s not the only reason that I grey rock her but it really didn’t help us to get along.

You said DD was able to complete the tasks when she was younger. So you know she's capable.

When did the change in behaviour and lying start?

I was repeatedly warned that the wheels might come off for my autistic DS when he started secondary school- partly because of the change of routine and hugely increased demands on executive functioning. Partly because of puberty and the increased social demands of meeting new kids and teachers, navigating teenage behaviour, trying to fit in when you know you're different. Etc.

We therefore provided as much supoort outside of school as we could (helped pack his bag every night, got a whiteboard to write his timetable and teachers' names on, I set a weekly alarm to check and sign his planner). In the end, because he was well supported, the wheels did not come off. He managed fine.

Maybe there is research on this. Maybe the people who advised us were just going off their own experiences like people are doing here. But it really helped us. He's just finished GCSEs now and will he starting 6th form in September. Again, we'll provide the scaffolding and support he needs to get started and temporarily decrease demands at home so he has the capacity to cope with all the changes.

But since you asked, in the time it took you to write out all her faults over and over again, you could have sat with her while she put her clothes away and checked her glasses were in her bag.

She's not here. She's gone to PGL for a week - she was nervous but she's been before and had a great time.
Hence me not running around after her and having the time to ask for suggestions to help her.
But ok, I won't ask for advice. Honestly, I am getting exactly the sense that DD feels should we say "tidy your room". Which, though nobody asked, we don't. We ask her to put away a small pile of clothes that's on her floor. Or her books. Or to take the clothes out of one drawer that's become a dumping ground, to find something specific.
I have no idea why anyone thinks a) DH spends his time on hobbies b) we don't give her small specific directions c) we don't help her with her homework d) we don't try to minimise her stuff - but she keeps buying more e) we aren't in contact with school about her difficulties f) we aren't trying to get family help from PAS.
I've either not said these things, or actively said the opposite.
School have booked an EP but we haven't heard they have a date yet.

I don't think I'm going to come back to this thread as it's mainly "but WHY are you doing this thing that you haven't said you're doing" or "but WHY are you at your wits end and asking for help on Mumsnet".

I can see that you maybe be feeling a little under attack. The main boards can be a bit hard when you’re asking for advice on ND DC. It must be doubly hard if they’re adopted and have ND.

Do you ever post in the adoption board @drspouse or in the SN Children board?

Research shows that children with ADHD are typically 30% behind their peers in terms of development so for a 12-year old, they're probably working around the level of an 8 yr old. Would you expect an 8-yr old to manage their own laundry? Not sure I would. You're setting her up to fail by expecting her to be able to do it when she clearly can't. You mention the ADHD Dude. Are his tips aimed at children or adults managing their own symptoms? You might like his tips but they're not going to work for everyone. Have you heard of body doubling? Basically, working alongside someone with ADHD, so they get on with it.

With unmedicated ADHD she is using way more energy both at school and home to keep up with her peers. Maybe she literally doesn't have to emotional bandwidth energy at this point to listen to and follow demands (and by demand I mean what you may see as a request, when your exhausted may feel as a demand). Does she sleep OK?

By the way, ADHD symptoms also fluctuate in girls and women during the menstrual cycle due to levels of hormones changing so she's likely to been a lot more support throughout different time of the months than others. Something to be aware of as she gets older.

OP you're parenting two children with additional needs, it doesn't matter if ones needs seem more than the other - they both still need extra effort and support in their own ways.

Instead of getting exasperated at what she struggles with I think you'd be much better off concentrating on what she can do and building up from there. If she's good at hoovering then get her doing more of that and tell her what a good job she does of it, if she likes making a meal get her doing more of that and show your appreciation. If she can't put things away properly for whatever reason then do that with her. Her glasses are obviously a huge bone of contention - why not have two pairs and have one pair kept in her school bag and one pair for home?

If you read up on ADHD you must know that lying is not unusual. Blurting out yes I've done it is standard for a number of reasons linked to the condition. You know if she is put on the spot she will probably lie so the obvious answer is to not put her on the spot.

You're trying to force her to be someone she's not capable of being right now, it doesn't matter what is 'age appropriate' - she may be 3 years behind her peers in emotional maturity due to her being ND. Treat her like a 9 year old instead of a 12 year old and you might be less frustrated and have more patience and tolerance.

I was going to mention Menstration too. I feel it’s unfair to compare her to her DB when he doesn’t have to deal with Ovulation, PMS and Periods.

I think that they are only just starting to properly research how this affects Women with ADHD and medication.

bs. Nothing to do with ADHD. Leaving them and not doing the task, yes, but deliberately hiding them? No. Have there been any adverse childhood experiences, divorce, forced move, loss of a close relative, addiction? related, happened in her life?

Well I have one with AuDHD who hasn’t experienced those things and would lie like this. Why do you think it’s trauma and not ADHD?

Read more, since she is subject to a disruptive move in formative childhood. That is the root cause

You need a specialist, not mumsnet. You’ve shown you’re wildly out of your depth for a ND child and you’re going to seriously harm her psychologically in the long term if you carry on like this.

Oh just thought of a possible solution for the glasses. Spare pair in different coloured case that lives in the school bag.

Tbh though I taught perfectly clever, non SEN year 10 and year 13 girls this year who had to be reminded EVERY lesson to put their glasses on to see the board 😬.

@TheBlueDeer there are quite a few of us on Mumsnet bringing up and teaching ND young people.

@drspouse I know it's annoying to get lots of suggestions you've already tried but sometimes there's a good one in there.

I remember your posts about trying to get a suitable school and support for your son (which it sounds like you did, which is brilliant).

Do you think that possibly because DD's challenges are less than DS's, your expectations for her are a bit high, as it sounds like she has significant difficulties too? I know that as my own DD looks and sounds very competent, people are often surprised by the level of support she needs.

@Phineyj I know, but OP seems spectacularly naive to what she’s dealing with and this child has also been adopted. Really sounds like she is quite out of her depth and needs some expert guidance to do the poor child justice.

Yes, that's true.

We saw a lot of experts back in the day and the only one who really got it was ND himself (a NVR counsellor). He was amazing.

@Phineyj we have that with our DD too. Looks and sounds very capable. Still needs support at home in her late teens. I think the difference is though that I’m happy to do it. I found growing up with a DM who not only didn’t support me but was constantly frustrated that I couldn’t keep my room to her standards and often screamed at me really damaging. I certainly didn’t feel loved by her.

This
myst be hard to read OP but I think you have had a lot of useful responses.

The thing you have absolutely not addressed is the issue of embedded early childhood trauma from the adoption and therapy for your dd or at lesst dome external support and compassion for this part of her experience. If you like to read I would suggest Peter Levine’s Trauma and the Child. It is a very well respected book on children, trauma, and memory.

Secondly I would very respectfully suggest you get support yourself for your (fairly apparent) feelings of grief/anger/loss at having a child who fell “so far from the tree” and who to your mind is not going to be successful like her research scientist mother.

Its terrbly difficult to handle the implicit, deep seated, grief at the loss of the imagined perfect companion child. There is a beautiful book “Raising the Unromantic Child” by a professor of English Romantic Poetry about the difficulty of raising her profoundly unromantic ND son. In the end she comes to love and appreciate him for who he is. Bit there are years of struggle with her grief and surprise at never having the connection she thought she would have with him intellectually or empathically.

I think you need support as much as your children do.