DD12 lies and hides things every time she's asked to do anything

[drspouse]

Whenever DD is asked to put away clothes she hides them - in one of the many cupboards we have e.g. where I keep my out of season clothes, under her bed, in the attic, many places, too many to search.
She has form for this with every task she's asked to do yes I've done it but she's walked out the room with something she's supposed to put away and she leaves it on the floor.
She's doing it at school as well, her first instinct seems to be to lie rather than actually do the job.
Screen time is a privilege not a right but she doesn't seem to care if she gets it, and usually lies about having done her jobs around the house. We can watch her if she's hoovering etc but we can't search every cupboard every time she has clothes to put away!
Full story here is that she's 12, she has done this ever since she worked out how to lie, she's been diagnosed with ADHD and we're on a waiting list for medication.

Lying as a coping strategy can be very difficult to deal with as it harms basic social bonds of trust. There are a number of other factors that are probably impacting on her presentation not just the ADHD, there is also adolescence, importance of peer networks over parental systems, her perceived difference potentially (diagnosis and family story). As you say you read alot and prefer to work with information that has a strong evidence base, I would suggest you focus on strategies to help you cope with an adolescent who is impulsively lying and how best to manage your responses and the stress of dealing with this behaviour over a protracted period of time.

Ultimately she will mature and have to figure this out however how you respond will play an important part in how she deals with this. If the lying causes relationship difficulties between you that intensify the very source of support - a trusting loving relationship with significant care givers, will be adversely impacted and could leave to secondary difficulties.

It can be very hard when you are at that stage in family life where you are balancing work, family members with different needs, life cycle demands on the whole household etc and its understandable if you see one child managing complex needs using logical and understandable strategies but another child is not. What she learns now and over the next few years is going to be an influence on how she manages her life long executive functioning differences.

I do understand when you say you know the value of routines and structures but sometimes cannot build enough of that in without her finding work arounds. That would be a good mid-term focus if you can do it, reducing the belongings and streamlining everything so its harder to lose/hide things and doesn't create so much work for you doing the problem solving. There is a lot of evidence to suggest body doubling works well for ADHD however its not where you would expect to be developmentally with a 12 year old so that might need some tweaking to feel appropriare for you. Perhaps if you have reading or other tasks to do that you can complete whilst being alongside her to get laundry put away in the right place that might be an idea.

You posted that your DH was busy with his hobbies, that's what prompted my comment about finding the time so I'm not sure why you're getting snappy with me.

But since you asked, in the time it took you to write out all her faults over and over again, you could have sat with her while she put her clothes away and checked her glasses were in her bag.

You could probably find capacity to be proactive with such things on a regular basis if you weren't busy fixing up whatever you left her to do by herself which went horribly wrong.

She deserves to go to school in clean clothes, her glasses in her bag and encouragement/supervision with homework. These are fundamentals that you sign up for when you decide to be a parent.

You've got some ideas to try in this thread which might help but in the meantime if she needs your help, she needs your help, whether you like it or not. She can't magically fix herself for you because you don't have time for her.

You posted that your DH was busy with his hobbies

No she didn't.

Could you try adding labels to the various drawers/ hanging spaces? Re—organising her room in a way that makes sense to her that helps her keep order and method ? Does she have a washing basket in her room etc, think of ways of making it as easy as humanly possible for her to keep order.

People lie to avoid confrontation or being held accountable or blamed. Children in particular will lie to avoid disapproval, 'being in trouble' and, ultimately, rejection. It's often a knee-jerk response to shame. Your DD (like my DC1+2) clearly struggles with some aspects of executive function, making the expectation to tidy up feel impossible for her. Her nervous system is likely prickling with the stress of it, as well as the knowledge that she is falling short and the fact that she knows she's lying (which, in itself, is a stressor). She needs your compassion, patience and perhaps a bit of humour and warmth too.
I have two ND teens who are great in lots of ways and also really struggle in ways similar to your DD (both also 'regressed' when they started secondary school -less cognitive capacity left for processing previously manageable tasks). I have found that they have 'got there in the end' with many tasks -a little later than their peers, for sure, as expected with developmental disorders but it was always clear that no amount of pressure was ever going to get them there faster. We've gone for finding intrinsic motivation as far as possible -I'd never want them to feel bad about finding certain tasks difficult to the point of feeling like they'd need to lie about it. Can you take the foot off the gas a bit, OP? Take the pressure off and revisit with renewed faith that time will 'do its thing' in another 6-12 months?

You need to just give her afew sets of clothes at a time and put them in her room and take out the dirty ones and wash them - maybe too many options overwhelms her?
if also ask if the go can expedite things so hopefully they improve for you both

You seem to have a very rigid and inflexible idea of what parenting, and particularly parenting a child with ADHD, should look like. It seems to involve you reading research (without understanding the obvious limitations of research when applied to any individual in a cohort… but you’re apparently a scientist) while your DD struggles with things but you “don’t have time” to help her. But hey DH makes the kitchen nice instead of helping her and DS washes his own clothes so your daughter is obviously just the outlier. 🙄

What you are doing is not working.
Why not listen to people and try something new instead of systematically destroying your DDs self esteem because research says she should respond differently to how she does. The lying is so bad that she is very obviously feeling like she can’t do anything right so she has given up. Since you like research so much, compare her behaviour to the rats in the experiment who, after so many electric shocks and no rewards, just stopped responding. Or the baby monkeys perpetually pushed away from the mother (a machine they became emotionally attached to) who again, just stopped responding. I think at this point you need support from SS because your poor DD needs help and I’m not sure you are emotionally equipped to give it.

I have adhd, well Audhd and it does sound like your daughter is the same but even reading your posts were very hard for me as I can sense the pressure you are putting her under so no wonder her adhd and possible autism is at an all time high as its just piling pressure upon her instead of actually trying to understand her needs. The lying will be a direct result of the fact shes feeling so pressured and just wants you to stop constantly at her and nagging her. Honestly your posts were really hard for me to read and I only skimmed through. It is like you are firing things at her repeatedly and she is not understanding the first round of questions and getting overwhelmed when more and more keep being thrown at her. Poor kid. This and being adopted has got to be so painful for her. Please be kinder to her, please try to understand that your routine and her brothers routine and anyone elses is not hers. She needs time to process previous instructions and shes now living in a heightened state of anxiety which will help nobody.

As someone who doesn't always put their own clean clothes away as an adult, I don't see the problem. Maybe she's lying because you are prescriptive and authoritarian.

I hope your tone here doesn’t come across to her because as an adult with ADHD you sound bloody awful. She’s not doing these things on purpose and I can see why she would be hiding stuff if she can’t finish a task if this tone is remotely close to how you treat her in real life. Please get some expert advice from an ADHD specialist before you cause her to grow up with low self esteem and guilt/shame. She is neurodivergent, normal ‘punishment’ etc isn’t going to work with these behaviours.

She’s 12 and she has ADHD, she needs extra support not more responsibility. Do her laundry for her.
Most NT 12 year olds will put their clothes in the basket and many will put away the clean ones. Your asking your child to take charge of the whole process without even checking until it’s too late whether she’s even done it, and one of you doesn’t even work!

You are both lying if you are saying you are teaching her independence, she is years from that and doesn’t need to do this now. You are the lazy ones.

Try following her and accompanying her while she does things for a good while. Never let her finish a task except when it is completed correctly.

Use verbal reminders.
Where does that belong?
Where is your shirt drawer?
You need to fold that.
Great, well done.. when successful.

Simplify and help her order her tasks.

Start with dirty clothes straight into nearby wash basket before her bath so that she will need to use clean clothes.

And they got through an adoption process for an ND child! Terrifying.

Regardless of research, of what she could do when she was younger, or of what's age appropriate, the evidence in front of you OP is that despite your best efforts, she is not coping right now. She isn't managing to do the chores she used to, she isn't doing homework as she should be, and she isn't looking after herself or her own needs very well.

So it seems to me that the most practical thing is to take as much of this away from her as you can manage. And yes of course there is a capacity problem, but if she'd broken her leg you would find a way. Treat this as a similar temporary problem for now. Make the experiment of doing as much for her as you possibly can, and see if the release in pressure helps her get back on track.

She has complex special needs. She’s neurodivergent and has developmental trauma.
Is she in therapy? Medicated? Are you in therapy?

It’s upsetting to read you have labels you call your children ‘Mr Random and Miss Messy’. I get that you’re fed up but that’s not going to help. Are these names that you think they don’t hear, or is this the ‘teasing’ that you refer to as being ok?

The lying is coming from a place of shame and no wonder. Look up Dr Becky on the reasons kids lie.

You don’t sound very loving or nurturing. You sound more like you’re at the end of your tether with a 30 year old who’s still living at home. She’s 12 with ADHD. Sounds like you need to remember she’s just a kid. Doing her own washing at that age is really odd. If her room is a top why aren’t you saying let’s go up and sort your room out so you can give specific instructions for each item and actually help her. Supervise and nurture her more. Praise her when she’s done something well. Help her make lists etc. it feels like her whole life is doing jobs and you moaning at her it’s wrong.

I've come to realise this is normal for my daughter (18) and AuADHD, and husband 57 and in denial ADHD. They find it too much and overwhelming.

Couple of things spring to mind.
Some of the issues you are experiencing could be to do with her being adopted rather than ADHD diagnosis. See if you can get specific support to manage this. (Have adopted family members, so aware of how much this can affect their behaviour.)
Also, if you are running the children to lots of clubs and there is a lack of organisation, then perhaps the clubs need to be cut right back. Disorganisation/lots of clubs are difficult enough to manage with NT children but chuck in adoption and additional needs makes it all much less manageable.
Also sounds like your DH needs to use some of his retirement time to be getting things sorted regarding the children. Great that he's busy but sounds like he might not be being particularly supportive.

I feel overwhelmed just reading about her life. It sounds relentless and depressing, and just lacking in love.

So this is just very bizarre behavior and it reeks of trauma. She is a 12 year old girl. She wants to fit in with her friends at school. All this lack of hygiene is very problematic from that standpoint.

The lying, as well, is very concerning. Not because it is defiant or rude but because it signals a terror and shame around her “faults” and failures. Perhaps she is anxious that you are disappointed or disgusted with her? Perhaps she worries you are sorry you adopted her?

Instead of treating her like a little, defective, uncooperative, greedy little problem try getting down to her level snd asking her why she hides her glasses? How you can together solve the problems you have identified? I highly recommend the book “How to talk so children will listen/how to listen so children will talk.”

And for fuck’s sake be open with your dh sbout how he needs to step up as a parent. You have two disabled children snd they bith need more scaffolding snd patience.

You sound very tired @drspouse i get it and the frustration of parenting a child with low executive functioning skills, it’s also the end of term and she’s tired from trying to function in the school routine. There’s several things here that resonate with me I have a 15 AuDHD DD and yes medication has really helped her but she’s only had it the last 6 months. Hormones play a Huge part in this and you didn’t say if she’s started her period yet, but this seemed to come with a big surge in hormones for our DD aged 12-14, and it’s taken two years to really see the monthly impact of this on every aspect of her functioning in life, and yet despite clear labeled plastic boxes in her wardrobe (no coat hangers at all) she really really struggles to put laundry away, pack a bag or remember basic things to leave the house. I constantly have to check, remind and re check yes it’s exhausting to EVERY single night get her in the shower and remind every week she needs to wash her hair or it wouldn’t happened by 10pm she’d still be procrastinating long after everyone in the house is fast asleep. Yet she’ll get A in maths, her brain just works differently and takes a lot longer to find ways to embed a routine - in comparison my other DD could do all these tasks aged8 no issues. In answer to your list up above yes I would still check she has clean pants, washed her hair, packed a bag etc because she still needs that scaffolding to do so unfortunately that’s parenting and some kids do just take longer to get there. Hopefully the medication will help.

Sorry I thought your post was about why would someone with adhd put something in a random place that wasn’t where they were asked to put something.

Purposely hiding things is different, but there’s probably an element of overwhelm there.

You help her more.

So say 'let's put these away together'.

@drspouse
I've read all you comments up till now and I want to say:

1. You are an excellent parent!

2. I admire the way you push back at those saying you should be doing everything for her. Why can’t a 12 year old do laundry adhd or not? It is important that children learn accountability and responsibility from a tender age. It is even more imperative for those children with ADHD brains. Research and common sense has shown that when parents do too much for their child , it raises their own self esteem while simultaneously decreasing the child’s self esteem.
   We need to be creating safe spaces for our children to struggle through the awkwardness of frying, failing and then succeeding the next time. They must learn not to constantly look to others to fix things for them but rather to look inwards first and test their strength to see how far it will take them.

3. The fact you’ve looked into the research and are not sentimental about the difficulties involved in parenting your daughter is truly impressive.