Should my 11-year-old be allowed more privacy from her father?

[Mandy1010]

My daughter is soon to be a 11yo. If she is in the bathroom her father will often go in there also to brush his teeth and do whatever he needs to do. In the past she has said to him that she is in there and can he come back when she has finished and not just barge in.

Last night at bedtime she was about to have a bath. She was already undressed. He went in to brush his teeth and do his bathroom routine. I overheard him telling her that she is not to lock the bathroom door as if she had a problem in there (•like a medical problem) that the lock is too strong and he wouldn’t be able to get in there to help. I kind of feel like he is saying it as he doesn’t want to be locked out and that at this age it is inappropriate.
I said it is ok for her to lock the door if she wants to but if she doesn’t lock it and door is shut he needs to knock and only come in if she allows it. I feel this is normal. Am I wrong??
she often likes me to be in the bathroom as company so I sit on the toilet but I only do this when she requests it. I am more than happy (would prefer to) chill else whilst she is in bath/shower. he seems to think if I am in there why cant he be. I feel like I am respecting her boundaries whereas he isn’t. Aside from the biological issue that he is male and I’m female.

I don’t think he is adjusting for the fact she is not a little girl anymore.

im just looking for other people perspective.

I asked her after, as unfortunately this argument played out in front of her, what she thought . She said that it more bothers her when she wants space in her bedroom and he just comes in anyway. But I worry she is just trying to keep the peace as we argued about it in front of her about it and also he got angry at her about something unrelated yesterday which will feel fresh and she may feel she doesn’t want to make him angry.

i feel like I need to have a conversation with him about this and assert her right to privacy but want to see others point of view before I do.

Honestly I am angry on your and your daughter’s behalf. How dare he invade her space and then even more so dig his heels in when she and you rightly challenge it to say hey, I want personal space. It screams of typical man making what should be safe spaces unsafe. You need to knuckle down hard on this in no uncertain terms. And if he is that concerned you can get a twist lock that you can use coin/card to slot in top open from outside for emergencies if needed.

From your one of your previoys posts I cant work out whether he is being deliberately obtuse or controlling. He needs to be told in no uncertain terms that no man goes into a bathroom where there is a naked girl, the fact he is her father is irrelevant. Tell him he is being a fucking creep otherwise. Ask him, do his friends do the same with their daughters and see what he says.

It is incomprehensible that an adult male does not comprehend why an 11 yr old girls would want privacy from males ,including her father!
She has asked him for privacy that should be sufficient ,fullstop.
Any male who doesn't understand NO, means no is a massive red flag.
You need to stop making excuses for this man.
He sounds to be violating a girls boundaries and i suspect he will continue to do so if not stopped.
If he tries it one more time,you need to contact social services,

I’m really sorry you are having to navigate this. Great to hear you've had some counselling and I completely understand how your confidence has been eroded by his behaviour. I think I understand a bit more where you’re coming from. You want to try and deal with this particular point re your daughter right now as potentially leaving him is something it will longer to build up to. If you are able to, keep up with the counselling and see what practical help might be available if you feel comfortable talking to friends and family about things. You are doing your best to take care of your DD and clearly love her a lot. I wish you all the best.

Sorry OP I agree with people posting, he is pretending he doesn’t understand DD’s right to privacy over her own body. He is saying as your DD asks you to accompany her in bathroom then he should have that right too is his way of keeping you off track. He wants to appear dense so you have to spell it out that he is acting predatory wanting to view a young girls body daughter or not so he can rage and say you have called him a pervert!
I too believe your daughter wants you to accompany her in the bathroom as protection, she may be too young to put her alarm into words but she knows!

It sounds as though you really need to speed up the leaving him process, for your daughter's sake. Can you make an appointment with a divorce lawyer and start to sort out the practicalities?

He understands exactly and absolutely where you are coming from.

He is playing a power game with you.

He is goading you, playing with you, laughing at you as you try to explain that there is a difference between men and women. He is enjoying this game.

Do not get caught up in the details. Do not be tempted to start explaining basic facts of life to him.

Tell him how it will be from now on - DD gets to lock the door when she's in the bathroom, that is all there is to say on the subject. You will not listen to any more of his nonsense. Do not get drawn into any more discussions. Tell him there will be no more discussion of this. Shake your head and repeat ad nauseum. "No. I will not discuss this further. The subject is closed."

You will have to be extremely disciplined and firm with yourself. The temptation to try to make a man like this see reason can be overwhelmingly strong. RESIST IT!

If he was interested in reason you would not be loving the life you and your daughter are now living.

Walk away. Do not discuss the subject again.

*loving the life = living the life.

As pp have said, the fact that she wants you to accompany her into the bathroom and has said she doesn't like him in her bedroom, makes me very concerned that he may already be sexually abusive to some extent, and she's trying to avoid being alone with him to prevent the abuse.

He knows you don't want to argue in front of DD or the builders and he is using that against you. Stand up to him every single time.

Keep regulated emotionally in front of your daughter. Allow him to be upset, but not yourself. She needs to learn from you what it looks like to stand up to him. She needs to see what it looks like to stand up to him even when he is angry or upset.

Can you make general declarations in a positive tone e.g. "in our family we are going to make more effort to give each other privacy in the bathroom" so the focus is taken away from her? I guess she feels confused and embarrassed.

I don’t know how you bear it. I feel stressed reading Mandy’s posts and quite scared for this young girl. I don’t think it’s normal for her to want mum in the bathroom either and agree with pp that wanting mum there is to have mum as her “shield” to keep him out and that’s extremely concerning.

You have 3 bathrooms yet your DH decides he wants to use the one your DD will be in for a maximum of 15 minutes at the exact same time she is in there???

He is extremely controlling, and you must assert to him that your 10/11 year old’s privacy must be respected. Particularly as she has asked him not to do this.

If you are struggling to stand up to him, what chance do you think she has?!? However, you MUST advocate for her, and explain to him that his behaviour is not acceptable or appropriate.

I’m sorry but someone who is repeatedly told by both you and your Dd that this isn’t right and continues to argue why he wants to do it is not a good person and I would be extremely concerned about his motives. If this carries on you are not safeguarding her. I hope she tells a teacher. Have you ever asked her if her dad has ever done anything inappropriate to her? I seriously think you need to ask her.

Is he a bit thick, or time travelled from the 50s? Does he refer to himself as the head of the household? He sounds an absolute arse.

Ok you’ve addressed this one issue. What about the constant gaslighting, the anger and controlling behaviour else where? This household sounds awful to be in.

Especially for an 11 year old girl who is looking to her Mum to protect her.

When someone is gaslighting you they try to muddle up your perception until your mind just becomes so tangled up with the nonsense they spout you start doubting yourself.
Imagine if you were talking to the police or SS about your husband, imagine what they would say when you explained that your husband said DD had no right to privacy because it’s his house or as she was inviting you into her bedroom and bathroom meant she had no rights to privacy from a grown man, her dad. Inept, socially clueless or a bit thick would not be an excuse they would accept and they would instantly be highly suspicious of his motives and any pleas from you saying you trust him wouldn’t make any difference.
Or even saying in front of the builders ‘let DD get naked in the bathroom without you DH, she doesn’t want you in there at her age.’ They would instantly think he was SA her.

I'm sorry but you are in denial. There is no non pervy reason for a grown man to insist on seeing his 11 year old daughter naked. He has other bathrooms to use, had no reason to be in there except that she was in there and he wants to look. This is textbook paedophile behaviour.

OP, I can really see you putting off getting out of this marriage, probably for years. Meanwhile, whatever your husband is doing to your daughter (abusive control and/or sexual abuse) will continue. You need to get your daughter out of this situation. This will have an enormous impact on her entire life. It's time to "woman up", however hard you find that. Stop making excuses for yourself. You will not be able to stop this man from abusing your daughter in one way or another. You need to think of her and to stop telling yourself that leaving him is too difficult. Get some support if you need it - talk to Women's Aid, see a divorce solicitor, talk to women on Mumsnet who've been through leaving an abusive husband themselves. But don't waste time - it's totally unfair on your daughter. Even the most innocent explanation for your husband's behaviour is reason enough to get your daughter away from him.

The bottom line is that your DD does not like this. He needs to respect that.

He is behaving very childishly being jealous of you - has he not noticed that he is a man and you are a woman? - and that is the basic point here.

A man who cannot respect when a young person begins to feel the need for privacy is no sort of father.

Hopefully her reasons for asking for this privacy are just the normal phase of her development and not because he has given her reasons to keep him out. I would feel a bit worried about the latter, given that he is so put out about this.

He is getting ready to sexually abuse you daughter. Do not minimise this in your mind. She is now at real risk: she is asking you to keep her company whilst she bathes, plus other toilets and bathrooms are available to him, not allowed to shut her bedroom door. What more evidence do you need?

Is she the only daughter?

He's just as likely to be abusing her already.

Years ago I saw an interview with a couple of Fred and Rose West's children.

Fred West would do this, go in to the bathroom where one or other child was having a shower or bath.

Does he really want to emulate that behaviour?

I think the PP who recommended talking to Women’s Aid gave good advice. I appreciate that you’ve had Counselling, but this man is very clearly controlling you with anger still and is also controlling your DD.

I’d also recommend starting a separate thread in the relationship section about leaving a controlling and angry H. Unfortunately, there are a lot of MNers with experience in that section who can help.

And I’d also recommend you talking to the NSPCC about your H going into the bathroom when DD is naked and telling her she has not rights to stop him and telling you it’s normal. The NSPCC will be able to give you advice on protecting DD and hopefully you can take their advice. The overwhelming advice on her seems to be that he’s a predator and you need to leave to protect your DD but for some reason, you seem to be staying and accepting his excuses. Perhaps talking to someone on the phone who is trained on child protection will help?

I agree with @TinyMouseTheatre. I understand that it's psychologically very difficult to get out of an abusive relationship. We see quite a lot of women on Mumsnet who have been trapped in abusive relationships for years. Those stories are tragedies, but what is likely to be happening here is much worse, OP, because your decision to underplay what is happening and to stay on and on and on in this abusive relationship is not just damaging YOUR life. You're making that decision on behalf of your very young daughter, and that is horribly unfair on her. You need to speak to people in real life who have more experience and objectivity than you have, and who can help you to take the practical steps you need to take.
About one third of victims of child sex abuse are targeted at your daughter's age. One half of child sex abuse is carried out by a member of the child's family.
In the likely event that your husband is abusing your daughter, "coming up with some house rules" will definitely not be effective in stopping him.
I agree that you should talk to the NSPCC. Hopefully they can advise on whether and how you or someone else should talk to your daughter to find out whether she is currently being sexually abused, in addition to the controlling behaviour towards her which is clearly going on.