Nasty bullying of DD (1.5) by DS (2.5) - Tonight he broke her finger, I'm at a loss.

[AmiWhatAndWhy]

They are less than a year apart, and generally get along really well. DS can be extremely protective and loving towards her and they share toys, food etc nicely.

Recently though I've seen if they are left alone when he is tired or frustrated he gets seriously nasty towards her. One occasion last week I went to the loo and heard a huge commotion, to find he'd trapped her inside the toybox, and was sitting on the lid laughing as she hysterically screamed.

He also tries to take food and drinks away from her, even when he has been given exactly the same and she just lets him. It's heartbreaking as she idolises him and he can be so cruel.

Tonight was something else though and he is currently in bed crying, DD is asleep in our bed with DP.

They share a room, DS in a toddler bed and DD in a cot. Sometimes he climbs into her cot and they sleep together, which he did this evening and it's always been fine so I turned out the light and left them.

I then heard proper screaming and dashed into their room. He was kneeling on her chest with her hand in his mouth, he had fucking blood around his mouth. I'm ashamed to say it but I pulled him off her and threw him to the floor. Her entire hand was covered in bite marks, and really deep ones, bleeding everywhere and her index finger was blue and swollen. How could he have done so much damage in less than a minute? We consoled her, cleaned her up and put tcp and plasters on but her finger kept swelling and I saw she couldn't move it. DP took her to A&E and she needed to have skin glue on one wound and an x ray showed a small break to her finger. They have taped it to the next finger, and also wrapped a bandage over her whole hand as she's too young to know not to mess with it. I am furious, with DS but mainly with myself. We sat him down and showed him she is hurt and he said sorry, but he doesn't even know the true meaning.

How am I supposed to stop this sort of thing happening? What am I doing wrong?

lol.

Go on. I know you want to. I'm going to get some made up for you:

100s advice.

They will have a retro 50s feel. Will involve long walks and um, cocktails and erm, lists.

it could be a MN top tip:

Go for a walk

It should be you know. I think it's excellent advice. And can be applied to just about any situation and always makes things better. [smug]

Also you can specify different sorts of walks:

Go for a quick stroll, feel the wind in your hair.

Go for a brisk, rainy walk, wrap up warm and walk very very fast.

Go for a slow, languid walk, feel the sun on your shoulders, sniff the flowers, be pleased you are alive.

Helpful and flexible.

Mine are 13 months apart, and when ds2 was only a few days old ds1 went up to him and dug his nails into his face.

Now ds2 is 2 and able to fight back, he gives as good as he gets.

Horrible though, and the guilt is terrible, you wonder how you didn't see it coming

I heart you 100x

i do think that sounds terrifying and your ds was naughty to do it, it seems he has a lot of resentment towards his sister. maybe he s jelous , (its been known for toddlers to put babys in the bin to get rid of her). plus he s two he ll be going through the terrible two and boy they sound troublesome for you.
i dont think anyone should start telling her off as she has seen the son she loves hurt the daughter she loves. i would be absolutly fuming too, and also having to deal with it everyda would get stressing.
maybe talk to your doctoor too explain how he acting.
keep us updated and hope all goes well

children do these things its not nice my sister and i had our dd's 11 months apart. when my dd was 1yr old and hadnt long started toddling my niece shut my dd's fingers in the door (hinge side) and held it. it was an awful shock i had never heard my dd cry like it- i was only a few steps away but had my back to them.
but my neice wasnt realising what she did. in her mind she was shutting a door her mum keeps shut and i had left open (her house not mine).
so my dd was very hurt and upset naturally lucky no major damage done. just 2 very upset little girls. i put dd's hand under cold tap as my sis started to shout at her dd- i stopped her as she was just a baby herself it was couple of weeks before her second birthday.
i am putting this story here as although slightly diff to op. it does show that children (more so babies at these young ages) do not understand the full consequences of their behaviour, and parents sometimes when faced with these situations do not behave in ways they normally would. am very sorry as i have only read first page of posts.
i dont think as a parent you are in the wrong i would just suggest extra vigilance.
oh and just rememebred when my lil sis was 2 i was 3 my older sis 4 me and my older sis pulled my sisters arms from their sockets- we were pulling her up onto the top bunk where we were sat playing- things do happen where older children hurt little ones without full understanding of what the are doing

Hmmm interesting thread - initially I was convinced that this was in NO way normal behaviour and trying to think what I would say/do if someone brought this to me at work (GP)....so I did some reading....and thought about my own DD's -
DD1 is 6 nearly 7 and very bright sensible and mature - so I will often leave her in room "watching" DD2 who is nearly 6 months while I go to loo/shower/kitchen etc (never more than few mins) - came back once to find her pulling DD2's hair quite hard and baby was kinda grizzling - quite shocked asked her what she was doing and she replied quite calmly that as DD2 was pulling her hair she though she needed teaching a lesson - it took quite a conversation to explain that a baby doesn't realise what she is doing and will just feel hurt and not understand it as a punishment...
Reading kinda confirms that at 2 and half - children do not realise the consequences of actions, understand cause and effect, hurt to others, impulse control etc etc - however they certainly should have some degree of empathy and a screaming hysterical younger baby should bring them to their senses if only the realisation that they have done wrong and mummy will be upset...
I am still a little concerned by the descriptions in the OP that this is a little beyond the norm....and would suggest that if you are concerned to see your GP - what I would do would be to have a word with out friendly local child psychiatrist and ask him what he thought ....
Good luck and whatever you do I am sure that you are doing the very best for your children and this is not your fault at all!

Oh lord at 2.5 the child barely has a coherent psyche for the psychiatrist to work with.

you will laugh about this when they are teenagers.

havent read the thread but if oyou hve the room to move one of them - then do.

aprt from that as per coltitz its normal its normal its normal

do you know, the hair pulling story has reminded me that even as a much older child than the OP's that i couldn't understand how my tiny wee brother was allowed to stick his tongue out and i wasn't. i thought this was most unfair. he was a month old and i was, i think, about 5. i knew he was a baby but clearly didn't have a clue what that actually meant.

aitch you have reminded me of sme thing my ds says he's 9 my dd is 2. he always wants to know why he gets sent to his room for throwing things across the room and she doesnt (just one example of the things he questions, there is something different each day0

I dont agree, this is not normal behaviour and i'm shocked anyone would say it was. Yes toddlers can be naughty and throw toys around and themselves quite a bit when they dont get their own way. That sort of behaviour if left to fester breeds that sort of behaviour in adults when theyre older, because they grow up thinking its acceptable. Thats why theres so many children these days beating others to death and shooting them as their parents havent acted on therir behaviour.
I'm not saying this is gonna be your little ds just that its not too early to try and curb these outbursts, its really for his own good.
At 2.5 my dd had the general gist of whats right and wrong and i think they do know they shouldnt be biting.

really sorry I haven't read all post but I wanted to add that I don't think this is normal at all. This is really extreme violent behavior at this age. I think you should talk to a healthcare professional about what is going on with your Son. It must be so hard for you and I am really sorry you are going through this.

champagne and roses, what a completely unhelpful comment.

"That sort of behaviour if left to fester breeds that sort of behaviour in adults when theyre older, because they grow up thinking its acceptable. Thats why theres so many children these days beating others to death and shooting them as their parents havent acted on therir behaviour".

No one is suggesting that the OP leaves this 'sort of behaviour' to fester!

Most of the other 140+ posts are helpful suggestions on how the OP can avoid this happening again.

The OP posted when she was upset, scared and worried.

Others have tried to assure her that, whilst the situation was upsetting, it is normal for two tiny children to get into these sorts of confrontations if left unsupervised.

You comments about children "beating others to death and shooting them" has no relevance to this incident.

Of course the OP isn't going to allow this to happen again.

Did you read the thread before posting?

Bettenoire, no hadnt read the complete thread, but saw enough people saying that this behaviour is normal, its that "oh kids will be kids" attitude that causes problems creates kids with no respect for anything and it really annoys me. I know this has no relevance to the incident but assuring someone that the behaviour is normal when it clearly isnt is wrong, the poster obviously knows its not normal behaviour otherwise she wouldnt have posted the thread. Ok maybe I was a bit strong with the beating and shooting comment, but my mum is a nursery teacher and has been for over 35 years and she knows from age 3 which children are going to go off the rails when their older and shes usually right.
So my suggestion was to get help with his behaviour now rather than wait till hes out of control.

Champagneandroses, how about actually reading what people say on a thread instead of posting unhelpful comments about what you think they are saying?

Noone has told the OP that she should allow her ds to carry on hurting his sister. What they have done is to suggest useful tips for stopping this behaviour by making sure he doesn't get a chance. That is precisely the oppposite of 'allowing it to fester'.

Speaking as somebody who has experience of aggressive children (and happy outcomes!!!) I know that hand-wringing is useless. Telling somebody that 'my child is good and doesn't do this' isn't much practical help. What you need is practical tips.

Even if a psychiatrist were willing and able to diagnose such a young child (unlikely IMO), the parents would still be the ones who have to deal with the problem on a daily basis. Diagnosis doesn't make anything go away.

There is a wealth of experience of the right kind on MN, particularly in the SN forum. Mums of children with ADHD/autism/other conditions have to deal with aggression and/or unsafe behaviour on a daily basis, sometimes for decades: they are a mine of information, and their experience can be adapted and used by parents of NT children too.

I have enough experience of this situation myself to know how exhausting it is. You have to constantly plan, think ahead, multitask and accept that you're not going to get a lot else done. But if it is successful, it will be so worth it.

Ds had his eighth birthday party today. Thanks to my putting a lock on his door all those years ago and taking big sister with me to the loo. I was in tears of exhaustion at the time, but have now got a big strong handsome living 8yo to show for it. And he's even on excellent terms with his sister. Who now has no aggression problems whatsoever, has never been in trouble at school and is, I would say, extremely unlikely ever to go shooting anyone.

what a stupid un educated comment champetc this op is angry and upset out of protection for the baby i am in no doubt that she is a caring good normal mum and her dcs sound normal also coldiz you are right if not blunt that this is normal behaviour 2 year olds are savvages without any pc social barriers he will be scared that everyone is cross but will have no concept of what he has done his lil sis will still worship him and they need to be watched like hawks till this faze ends. I speak as mother of ten and someone who has a degree in childcare and has worked with them for over 20 yrs. May I also say that this is not the sort of situation that causes gun toting madness for gods sake this child belongs to a normal family children that become like the ones on the news have years of serious imput and turn to gangs though the need to belong to something when there is a lack of family support and a lot of other factors you silly silly woman

i would agree with the majority of the posters that your little ds was too young to know better, you really cant leave a 2.5 yr old alone with a younger sibling, my four boys are 8,5,3 and 3mths and there is no way i could leave any of alone when they were toddlers, so now i cant leave ds3 (3and a half) with ds4. ditto when the others were younger.

ds3's 'thing' to do has been to 'squeeze' the babies hands or bend his fingers back, i couldnt leave them for a second when ds4 was first born, now three months later and ds3 is getting better, he is less jealous and understands that he needs to be gentle, even so i wont go the loo etc without taking one of them with me.

it does get much better as the get older, you just have to be consistent in your rules and exlain to your ds how to be gentle, when ds1 was little i was forever telling him to use his 'gentle hands' it sounds really poncy and stupid but it worked

keep going it is hard work, dont beat yourself up about it, just make sure they arent left alone again

hope you dd feels better soon xxxx

I am not an un-educated person and am as entitled as everyone else to an opinion on this subject. I have children with a 3 yr gap and many friends with similar gaps to the Op so have enough experience to make my own judgement. I still stand by what I say that I dont agree that this behaviour is normal, I did say that maybe the beating and shooting comment may have been a bit harsh and a bit too generalised. I also speak from the experience of living in the area we live in, when this type of behaviour is brushed off as normal boys will boys behaviour, they have invariably end up in some kind of trouble.I didnt offer any tips on what to do as I wouldnt know where to start on trying to change the situation but wanted to express my shock at in general people were saying hes only two he hasnt really done anything wrong.
Why have the people who dont agree about it being normal been jumped on in this thread, we dont all have to agree with you.
Just out of interest Cory what happened to
change your brother from a violent child into a caring family man?

AmI

for you and both your babies.

I hope you cana get this sorted out. Maybe talk to a doctor or psychiatrist if you are concerned?

Agree though that it is probably not bullying per se, as he is too young to realise. But the incident is quite scary, and not, IMO, 'normal' behaviour.

Thinking of you.

Champ - people haven't been saying that the op ds hasn't done anything wrong. In fact, they've been saying the opposite. Of course it's not okay behaviour.

BUT at 2y of age it's normal for a lot of children if left alone with a younger sibling for any length of time. The solution is to NOT leave very young children unsupervised. It's why parents take children with them to the loo or keep them nearby. As they get older and with adequate supervision and direction from adults they grow out of it.

If you had read previous posts, I think you should have realised this. The replies haven't been along the lines of "oh boys will be boys" which, as you say, would have been a ridiculous response.