Nasty bullying of DD (1.5) by DS (2.5) - Tonight he broke her finger, I'm at a loss.

[AmiWhatAndWhy]

They are less than a year apart, and generally get along really well. DS can be extremely protective and loving towards her and they share toys, food etc nicely.

Recently though I've seen if they are left alone when he is tired or frustrated he gets seriously nasty towards her. One occasion last week I went to the loo and heard a huge commotion, to find he'd trapped her inside the toybox, and was sitting on the lid laughing as she hysterically screamed.

He also tries to take food and drinks away from her, even when he has been given exactly the same and she just lets him. It's heartbreaking as she idolises him and he can be so cruel.

Tonight was something else though and he is currently in bed crying, DD is asleep in our bed with DP.

They share a room, DS in a toddler bed and DD in a cot. Sometimes he climbs into her cot and they sleep together, which he did this evening and it's always been fine so I turned out the light and left them.

I then heard proper screaming and dashed into their room. He was kneeling on her chest with her hand in his mouth, he had fucking blood around his mouth. I'm ashamed to say it but I pulled him off her and threw him to the floor. Her entire hand was covered in bite marks, and really deep ones, bleeding everywhere and her index finger was blue and swollen. How could he have done so much damage in less than a minute? We consoled her, cleaned her up and put tcp and plasters on but her finger kept swelling and I saw she couldn't move it. DP took her to A&E and she needed to have skin glue on one wound and an x ray showed a small break to her finger. They have taped it to the next finger, and also wrapped a bandage over her whole hand as she's too young to know not to mess with it. I am furious, with DS but mainly with myself. We sat him down and showed him she is hurt and he said sorry, but he doesn't even know the true meaning.

How am I supposed to stop this sort of thing happening? What am I doing wrong?

I can fully understand that you are in shock and that it was a horrible thing to experience.

But I have to say that I couldn't trust dd with her baby brother either, though she was 3 1/2, so a bit older than yours. She threw things at his head when he was newborn, she tried to twist his arms, she tried to bite etc etc. I honestly don't think there was anything wrong with her; it's fairly normal for the age. And she was jealous. She has since grown into a lovely caring pre-teen.

I solved the problem by taking her with me everywhere and putting a lock on the door if I had to leave her unsupervised. For this reason too I did not let them share a bedroom until they were quite a bit older.

Also, it might be a good idea to look carefully at the safety of your house. I would not leave such small children playing unsupervised with a box that either of them could get trapped in.

It does get better, they do grow out of it. For the moment you're looking at damage limitation.

Don't beat yourself up for what happened. Accidents happen in most families. But also try to understand that your ds will not grow up any quicker because you are under stress and need him to- in fact, that sort of situation is bound to delay him further. (speaking as a woman who has been through some pretty stressful times- and seen some pretty extreme behaviour)

I think what Colditz wants to warn you against is falling into the trap of seeing your ds as inherently vicious or aggressive- because once you start doing that it can become self-perpetuating. I know how hard it is to start every day anew, with a warm smile towards yesterday's little so-and-so, particularly if you are feeling protective against a weaker child- but it really has to be done; it's what mothers are for .

Make sure you yourself have adult support about your own situation. See if there is anyone who can take your little one out for a few hours so you can have quality time with the big one. And a little time for yourself.

Sorry, should have made myself more clear. I locked the younger child in, not the elder aggressive one. Just a simple hook arrangement, not a proper lock.

Just wanted to give some sympathy to the poster. I have 20 months between my 2 and DS1 can be absolutely horrid to DS2. It is hard to forget that your oldest is still only a baby themselves (I know I am guilty of this) but as other posters have said this is something you have to try and remember.

Now this has happened I would never ever leave them alone together. I know its hard but I always take DS2 to the loo because i just couldnt trust what his brother would do.

I really hope you can get over this problem and get back to being able to trust your child and enjoy a loving relationship between them. x

A two year old can't empathise or forsee consequences and has no impulse control. It's something that they learn over time. Now, this was a horrific thing to happen to your dd, but this incident does not make your ds a horrific child.
You need to move on from this. Your dd and ds will have forgotten the actual incident itself already. I agree that they should not be left alone together at all because your ds has not learned to control or communicate his frustration in an appropriate manner. He will, as long as you are calm, disciplined and deal with things as they arise.

i have 3 girls ages 8, 5 and 3.

recently the 3year old took a chunk out of the 8year olds arm. she didnt understand why it was wrong, but i tried to explain that biting was wrong, but she is unfortunatly gouign through a biting phase.

i knocked SGK out when i was a child. she climbed on the back of the rocking horse i was on, and we both ended up on the floor, she was knocked out.

kids fight.

2 year olds dont udnerstand how much things hurt.

I don't think it's normal. Is this really seen as normal? I am horrified to read it and understand your feelings OP. I am not an expert on 2 year olds so am prepared to have it explained to me why I am wrong but I don't think this is normal at all.

I am not sure 2 year olds have much sense of empathy. I know my DS didn't when he was that age.

However I can sympathise with the horror! I can't imagine I would have reacted any differently to be honest.

This might help/it might not, but I am one of 6 children all very close together. We tortured each other regularly and are now all grown up and whilst not terribly close I love my brothers and sisters deeply and know without a doubt that I can turn to them no matter what (and they know the same about me). I actually have scars from my childhood (physical not emotional!).

Please just DO. NOT. LEAVE. THEM. ALONE. TOGETHER. at least until your little one is able to give as good as she gets - not very PC but hey it worked for us, I am not the only one with scars

You poor thing, I don't really have any advice other than keep them seperated/supervised at all times. Can DS maybe go to nursery a little? Being pushed around by bigger kids is a surefire way of speeding up the empathy process in my opinion.

He absolutely needs to know that he hurt his sister and I think he (and she) needs to see that that is NOT OK.

Good luck and remember this will pass!

Why not, F+Z?

I don't think it's normal either (and I have 2 toddlers with a 15 mth age gap). I would seek some help from your HV and take a zero tolerance stance on any violence (at 2.5 they should be starting to understand right from wrong). My dd went through a 'pushing' phase at this age, and she was certainly old enough to be taught that it was wrong.

Ami, what a horrific thing to have happened. i for one can understand what you are going through as almost exactly the same thing happened with ds2 and dd when ds was 3 1/2 and dd was 1 1/2. we did however suspect at the time that ds2 had an ASD (was going tho assessment at that time). in some ways it made it more 'understandable' but i was still v upset by it and by his lack of empathy etc. i just wanted to do everything i could to protect dd any way i could. he has improved with her but it used to be dreadful. i dont agree with many of the posters, i don not believe for one minute that this is normal toddler behaviour (and by that i dont mean to insinuate that he might in any way have sn -that was just part of a piece of the puzzle for ds2). i think you need to keep them apart at ll times, watch them together at all times and try and get some help- i know our local health centre offers family support groups. i found them invaluable when i was going through this with ds2 and dd.
its not your fault, its not something youve done wrong and you need to take some time to get over what must have been a horrific shock for you as welll as your poor little dd. {{{{{hugs}}}}}} for you cos i feel your pain love i really do

oh and my dd is now 3 1/2 and she has never ever done anything like this

I have read only half the thread but have to digress from the pov of the majoirty of the posters. I don't view this behaviour as entirely normal, no. What is normal of course is the inability of the 2 yr old to understnd the effect of his actions or to be able to stop himself should he want to attack his sister.

What is not normal in my opinion is the ferocity of the attack or the apparant enjoyment that Ami says he got whilst biting and being covered in her blood or the throwing of the hot chocolate /teddies later.

Ami summed it up when she said bashing round the head wiht train track is normal impulsive toddler behaviour. The violence and harm shown here seem to go beyond that. I have no experience of what it may be but my instinct says that level of harm/enjoyment of harm is not standard toddler behaviour.

My own 2 yr old will , of course, bash or even pinch his sister when she gets on his toy car ( sister is 4 and more than capable of giving a wack back!). However , when said sister bursts into tears he looks startled and contrite and when we "tell him off" - meaning that we tell him firmly - but not frighteningly loudly or sharply- that this is wrong and that he is to say sorry - he does so and even attempts to put his arms round her and will kiss her cheek. Of course he will do it again 10 mins later and it can hurt - little toddler fingers pinching pudgy 4 yr old flesh- but the difference is that it is done out of frustration and impulsiveness - seen as the best way to evict sister from his toy - rather than wiht glee and malice at hurting for hte sake of it and deriving pleasure from that hurting.

Hope this makes sense.

Ami - I feel for you. In your position I would probably seek advice from HV or see whether there are any child psychs on MN who can give you further guidance. In my childhood there was a special clinci called the chidl guidance clinic for issues such as this to assist parents in stratedgies etc but I doubt they exist on the NHS anymore.

Wish you well.

i'm kinda with franny, but it may be that the OP has described the behaviour with an almost lascivious degree of detail... it doesn't seem super-normal to me, nor does it seem super-abnormal, if what you read is that the boy bit the girl and was sitting on top of her and not in the slightest bit upset when she was crying.

i do think he can understand, though, that biting is wrong etc, and that causing pain is wrong. i believe dd can, certainly, and has done for a while. but then there's no sibling rivalry at play with dd...

he may be a bit over-aggressive at the moment (testosterone surge? i don't know anything about boys) but it would be awful if this incident defined him. certainly taking a sip of hot chocolate and pouring it out onto me is something that dd might do if she was feeling minxy and unsettled.

i don't know what the OP wants to hear, though, it does seem like the advice has been pretty consistent throughout, not to demonise a child for acting like a toddler and not to leave them alone together for the next while.

oh, and dd would deffo throw toys as well. that's just temper not knowing what to do with itself imo.

Op says-
"DS can be extremely protective and loving towards her and they share toys, food etc nicely."

"if they are left alone when he is tired or frustrated he gets seriously nasty towards her. "

Well there you go, then. At this age you need to be supervising them almost constantly if you want to "stop this sort of thing happening". By correcting and intervening in the less serious situations you stop the things progressing to more dire happenings.

DON'T leave them alone together until they are older.
Watch for if he is tired/frustrated and be ready to intervene.
If possible, I wouldn't even have them in the same bedroom until they get older.

Lots of good advice given on here. Put things down to experience and put it behind you now with a resolve to be more vigilant with your 2 babies.

same old really, don't leave them alone together.
but, if you have to go to the loo, don't ALWAYS take dd - that'll just stoke more jealousy.

scrupulous parenting fairness and vigilance.

and yes, agree with whoever said it, bad attention v no attention? screaming furious mummies win every time.

lots of children's centres run interesting parenting courses on a variety of topics which give lots of ideas about dealing with behaviour/ toddlers/ etc etc - i'm not criticising btw - i would have reacted exactly the same way - but it'll just give you some ideas about preventing recurrence before we all go off and lock him up.

ds1 has what we refer to as 'an anger problem' and he was a bomb at 2, at 6 he's (mostly) under control.

you are the mummy. 2 year olds like to think that they make the rules, but they don't. if you don't want him hurting dd, don't let him.

hope her hand is less sore now. it must have been a terrible shock for all 3 of you.

You poor thing. That sounds awful. I'm with recent posters. It doesn't sound quite right although I am not coming from a position of much experience. I have a 20 month old and I don't leave her alone with babies but I am pretty sure she wouldn't do what you've described.

Perhaps as dashboard says, this is at the extreme end of normal.

Anyway, I just wanted to voice some support and to say that it actually made me sad to read about your DS in his room crying on his own. He's done something horrible and you might need to do something about that (will leave that to experts to comment on) but I hope you can still feel he's your little boy and treat him with cuddles and love.

I'm sure it's unnecessary to say that but I do know a family where a difficult little boy has become the demon of the family because they were so shocked by him and some of his behaviours. He is now playing up to that role and it's very sad to see what happens to a child who thinks he's "bad".

FrannyandZooey on Fri 20-Jun-08 09:56:57
'I don't think it's normal. Is this really seen as normal? I am horrified to read it and understand your feelings OP. I am not an expert on 2 year olds so am prepared to have it explained to me why I am wrong but I don't think this is normal at all. '

If by normal you mean something that should happen- then of course not. But if by normal you understand something that is statistically fairly likely to happen if a jealous young child is left unsupervised- yes, then I don't think normal is that unreasonable.

We never had a serious injury when dd was going through her phase, but that was because I knew she might do it and watched her like a hawk.

Naturally, you work as a parent on teaching your children, eradicating bad behaviour etc. But child-rearing is work in progress. I wouldn't trust a 2yo.

I agree that there is something a bit scary in the OP's description of the incident, but it is quite hard to gauge how much of that is coloured by her shock and horror. We weren't there to see how much enjoyment the child was really displaying. I have known small children to laugh when they are really frightened. And not all children- especially when going through an intensely jealous phase- show contrition when they have injured someone.

Besides- didn't the OP specifically state that the child did say 'sorry'? Yes she did- just checked. (But that this was no comfort to her as he is too young to know what it means. Which rather begs the question, if he doesn't understand what sorry means, how can he be held responsible at all?)

"Which rather begs the question, if he doesn't understand what sorry means, how can he be held responsible at all?"

*dink

Nailed it.

You can't have it both ways...

amen to that last point, cory.

I don't think it's unusual.

I had a friend whose son had a real biting problem. There were some minor developmental issues there but he was biting hard until he was well and truly gone 4. The behavioural team who were helping the family reminded the (very upset) mum frequently that to him biting was no worse than pushing. And this will be true of any 2 year old. Many don't bite (mine never have) but that's more the luck of the draw. A 2 year old can't understand the 'scale' where biting is worse than pushing and thumping hard is somewhere in between.

This sounds like it all happened very quickly, was presumably spontaneous.

I'd avoid leaving them alone tbh until they're older, but I wouldn't worry about it.

I have 2 sons less than a year apart (3.5 and 2.6).

I don't think this is normal behaviour. Truly.

Perhaps I am lucky/naive but my children have never viciously attacked each other like this. Sure, they have hit each other, pushed each other and yelled at each other but they have never tortured each other like that.

I think you need to speak to your GP. Perhaps your GP will say it's normal, I just don't know. You cannot allow them to sleep in the same room from now on. That in itself to me proves that it is not normal.

Good luck. How awful for you.

"vicious"

"tortured"

Could you try, perhaps, to get a little bit more DM headline in your posting style?

It's just what this thread needs.

Don't be so ridiculous bruxeur and don't be so patronising.

From what the OP has said it was a vicious attack. If the OP wasn't concerned then she wouldn't have posted.

I am trying to offer my opinion as the mother of two small children with a similar age gap and how concerned I would be.