Nasty bullying of DD (1.5) by DS (2.5) - Tonight he broke her finger, I'm at a loss.

[AmiWhatAndWhy]

They are less than a year apart, and generally get along really well. DS can be extremely protective and loving towards her and they share toys, food etc nicely.

Recently though I've seen if they are left alone when he is tired or frustrated he gets seriously nasty towards her. One occasion last week I went to the loo and heard a huge commotion, to find he'd trapped her inside the toybox, and was sitting on the lid laughing as she hysterically screamed.

He also tries to take food and drinks away from her, even when he has been given exactly the same and she just lets him. It's heartbreaking as she idolises him and he can be so cruel.

Tonight was something else though and he is currently in bed crying, DD is asleep in our bed with DP.

They share a room, DS in a toddler bed and DD in a cot. Sometimes he climbs into her cot and they sleep together, which he did this evening and it's always been fine so I turned out the light and left them.

I then heard proper screaming and dashed into their room. He was kneeling on her chest with her hand in his mouth, he had fucking blood around his mouth. I'm ashamed to say it but I pulled him off her and threw him to the floor. Her entire hand was covered in bite marks, and really deep ones, bleeding everywhere and her index finger was blue and swollen. How could he have done so much damage in less than a minute? We consoled her, cleaned her up and put tcp and plasters on but her finger kept swelling and I saw she couldn't move it. DP took her to A&E and she needed to have skin glue on one wound and an x ray showed a small break to her finger. They have taped it to the next finger, and also wrapped a bandage over her whole hand as she's too young to know not to mess with it. I am furious, with DS but mainly with myself. We sat him down and showed him she is hurt and he said sorry, but he doesn't even know the true meaning.

How am I supposed to stop this sort of thing happening? What am I doing wrong?

What I mean is to an adult knowing that it's hot makes the action worse. But to a child I don't think that is a clear difference. Pouring a hot drink being so much worse than pouring a cup of say water.

What a strange thing to post katiedd-"it must be hard for op to like a kid"...! It is not a kid, it is the OP's own little boy you are talking about!
Some of the point of view on here are not helpful in my opinion.

I pushed my 2yo brother into a lake when I was about 3.5. I just wanted to see what will happen. Plus, I thought, it would be quite nice not to have him around any more.

A couple of years later he stabbed me with a knife in the arm. I still have the scar.

We are both pretty normal and get on really well.

He can be nice & loving to his sister which would indicate he's not some sort of damaged child as the OP I think feared. The 'terrible' twos are not so named for nothing. Although the behaviour distinctly wasn't lovable he certainly still is . Your dd when older will no doubt embarrass her brother with tales of this when she's older.

I would also add my DD who is 2.1 has limited empathy (unlike her older brother at the same age) and she finds it amusing to wallop us & dc, particularly if she has an object in her hand, but she's growing out of it and she is dealt with firmly and consistently, without giving her the attention she's seeking. It is to an extent conscious behaviour as she doesn't do this to anyone else nor does it at nursery, but she's not to the point yet where she feels bad for doing the wrong thing. That will come.

AmiWhatAndWhy why not see your HV? Sometimes a professional and objective perspective can see things that we can't or maybe she can make some helpful suggestions.

Had a conversation with ds2 (6) and ds 3 (3) the other day. It went:

ds2: mummy can we go camping
Me: hmm it would be nice to but it might be a bit difficult because of ds1 (he's severely autistic)
ds2: why? because he might run off?
Me: yes exactly
ds2: and then we'd never see him again?
ds3: that would be sad
ds2: or he might get run over.
ds3: yes he might get squashed
ds2:I suppose we might find him again but just in a different place
ds3: we might find him next to some sheep over there

The point being the way that ds1's potential death was being discussed by ds2 in particular was with a complete lack of understanding of the total horror and distress that would be involved with losing ds1. And ds2 is SIX. And a perfectly normal, loving little boy. His age just means he doesn't process things in the way adults do.

In response to the OP (I haven't read all the posts so excuse me if I am repeating), it seems to me that your little ds is reacting to the fact that your dd is getting bigger and he no longer has most of your attention. The quickest way to get your attention is to hurt his sister. In my opinion a 2 year old does not intentionally 'bully' anyone but it is often a cry for some one on one attention with his mummy.

It must be terribly difficult for you to see him hurt your dd, but perhaps some more individual mummy time would benefit you both.

Thankyou to everyone, I haven't had time to read back just yet, so just caught the last few posts. Today DS has been incredibly loving towards DD. He keeps kissing her hand.
When I woke up this morning I felt awful for him and for her, I feel like I have failed them in some way. We are moving very soon so they will have seperate rooms, but it's surely not normal to be scared to leave them alone for even a second? Today has been bloody hard, lots of tears and me having to constantly watch them. I've managed to get nothing done. Breakfast dishes are still sitting there.

And, just to clarify It wasn't 'hot' hot chocolate, why would I give him that?

It was tepid milk with a small spoon of cocoa powder.

"I feel like I have failed them in some way"

No - you haven't/

"surely not normal to be scared to leave them alone for even a second"

Can be. Ds1 is usually very very gentle and always loving, but he's autistic and has learning difficulties and therefore couldn't be expected to understand - he's like a 2 year old in many ways- so I never left him alone with ds2 or ds3 until they were big enough to fight for themselves. I also got cross with MIL recently when she told me off for hovering over him when he was looking at his baby cousin (he was very gentle, but if he hadn't have been then he would have got the blame unfairly imo).

My little sister (aged about 3 at the time) stabbed me in the hand with the a compass. I (aged 6) retaliated by sticking a sharpened pencil into her arm - the tip broke off and she had to go to the doctors as my Mum couldn't get it out.

My brother gave me a black eye on more than one occasion, and tripped me at the top of the stairs leading to a broken wrist.

None of us have grown up evil - my Mum approached everything rationally and never once made us feel like we weren't loved, even if we weren't "liked" at that moment in time.

It must have been horrible to see your DS behaving like that, but I really don't believe that a 2 year old would appreciate how wrong the behaviour was.

Yes it is normal to be scared to leave them alone for a minute at their ages. That's one of the things makes having young children difficult. Always being aware of what they are up to. It will pass as they get older. Glad today has been somewhat better.

He's 2
He's jealous
He wants attention. Throwing a cup of choclate will do it fine.
He doesn't understand why you were unhappy with him, he knows something is wrong ,he cannot put it into words. He gets frustrated at this. He throws a cup of chocolate.
His sister maybe pokes him in the eyes and laughs at him. He maybe pokes her eyes and laughs back (especially if she then starts crying) His sister maybe then bites down hard on his finger, he bites down hard on hers.
She cries. He is in position of power, he likes it, he laughs.

Where is this evil, torturing behaviour? They are babies. Empathy doesn't start until much later and without empathy you cannot understand guilt. A 2 yo may understand what is right and what is wrong (if he has been shown) but without empathy he will not have a clue as to why something is wrong, or as to why it is worse to bite your sister than it is to spit out your peas. That's why you have to enforce boundaries again and again and again with kids -they just don't 'get it' on any kind of intellectual level. He would have known (probably) he was being 'naughty', but not for a minute will he have realised how 'naughty'

I'm with colditz 100% on this one.

Sorry to OP if that sounded harsh - I was gettign a touch frustrated with soem of the other posts.

Sorry you have had a stressy day, AmI, it does get better I promise.

I agree squiffy with your whole post. I can see that OP was horrified, but her DS is a baby.

I agree with Miaous post ( a long time ago!) and Squiffy.

It does sound as if this little boy is furious and jealous.

Of course he wants to be in the cot - it used to be his (presumably) and now it is the baby's.

DS quite delibverately fetched a cup of juice and poured it into the middle of our bed when jealous that DP and I were talking in bed.

He may well want to take out his fury on his sister (as well as loving her) just as he does with you - hence throwing hot choc on you.

Emotion is very very confusing for todddlers.

It sounds a very frightening experience - i hope your dd is recovering well.

He sounds like my ds1 - who is now 10 and quite sane, well, sort of, you'll be pleased to hear.

He was v. like this towards ds2. It was dreadful. And it made me want to weep, and I definitely thought that perhaps he just was not such a very nice person. I regret thinking that, and it makes me feel guilty as he is evidently an INCREDIBLY nice and sensitive person.

He was impulsive and excitable. The pouring drink thing made me think of him, I actually said 'Oh god, yes!' Something's up, I'm in trouble, all kinds of weird things have happened, what happens if I do this? How annoyed will you be? What am I doing? What am I thinking? I don't understand what you're talking about. Who screamed? Oooh Oooh everyone is cross, oooh oooh, bang, fizz, splutter.

You may just have a hard few years ahead of you. Separate. Try to keep calm. Keep telling him. Go for lots of walks, and get out the house as much as you can. Don't leave him alone with her. Give him something else to bite. Watch like a hawk.

I have noticed that that is actually the only piece advice I seem to give on MN

'go for a walk'

lol

It seems to me there's a big difference between what most posters are describing here (eg pushing sister off rocking horse, other sudden and short episodes of violence - my oldest sister pushed my middle sister downstairs for instance)

and the OP. As Marmaduke says it is the continuation of it. I've found this thread really upsetting and it has stayed with me today. Perhaps as Aitch says it is the lurid language used in OP. But I would imagine its the kind of image that would sear itself onto your brain, really - I think the part to me that doesn't seem normal (hate that word but you know what I mean) is the fact he had obviously carried on for quite some time despite seeing the consequences (blood, screaming) that I would expect to upset or frighten or shock a little child into stopping.

100 as usual your posts are thought provoking

(been wondering if you had really gorn and left us )

god . I haven't read all this thread but I remember clearly throwing a pair of sissors at my brother and, as the tip was sticking in his forehead, I remember thinking

" pretty sure i'm going to be in trouble for this one"

I was old enough to remember that too!

Kids have to learn self control and they have to learn that if you do stuff it can hurt other people. Empathy is a learnt skill.
He is very young.

Yes, I think it is that it is in some weird way exciting perhaps? Or ennervating? Or something like that?

It's not easy to live with that's for sure.

Thought-provoking is one of my favourite euphamisms Mrs Fra! I have worked well all week. Am on a visit.

I remember 'stabbing' another child in the hand with a pencil
it caused a nasty injury
I was pretty shaken up by it, I wouldn't have carried on
what I am saying is I can understand a violent impulse but not a sustained episode of violence
I've never seen or heard of anything like this before in young children (whatever that is worth)

LOL at euphemism 100
well I like reading your posts and all that
even though we don't always agree I still like them

ami - 100 posted the best advice on here. Print it out and stick it on your fridge! In fact, I might too!

fwiw, I totally get why you were so upset last night both over the incident and the replies.

Franny, I'd like you to meet Miyazaki. She prints out what I say and puts it on her fridge

I'm not even saying I think anything about this. I think it is very hard, and mostly very stupid and utterly pointless. But if your child does this, then they do and you have a find a way through.

what "go for a walk"?

sorry 100 but that doesn't even make a fridge MAGNET

And also as someone said below. The 2 y-o bit his sister, and when she screamed he didn't stop. The description was a bit lurid, but I expect she was shocked.