DD (16) physically retaliated in a fight with DS (6). I don’t know what to do.

[CandidPearlWasp]

Hi everyone. I’m having a very tough time with my children and hoping for some advice.

My DD is 16, and my son (her half brother) is 6. DD splits her time 50/50 between our house and my ex husband’s house.

Recently my son has been having behavioural challenges. Our physician suspects he has ODD and ADHD, and we are awaiting therapy and services for him. In the meantime, he has explosive and sometimes violent meltdowns and everyday tasks are a battle when he’s not getting his way. He has hit, punched, pulled hair, bit, etc. all of us and it’s been awful, but we can usually deescalate the situation, but since he’s a tall boy and weighs 65lbs it does hurt.

Two weeks ago my DD was in her bedroom watching something on her iPad, which her father bought for her. We do not have one for my son, so he’s been very intrigued by it and she’s let him use it before. This time, he went in and said he wanted to play on it. She said no. He started to have a verbal meltdown and she said “I said no, get out of my room please”. This escalated into him climbing onto her bed, hitting her in the face and pulling her hair. She then grabbed him by the hair, got off the bed by standing up while holding his hair and dragged him out of her room and across the hall by the hair. He was screaming in pain and fear and she threw him into his room, said “that doesn’t feel good, does it?” and slammed the door.

I was outside as this happened and alerted by the nanny cam we have downstairs. I rushed in and ran into my 6 year old’s room to calm him down, as he was wailing. My 16 year old came in and got angry with me saying it’s all always about him, even though he was “a little psycho who attacked her”. I told her that I understood it’s not okay he attacked her, but he’s a small child and what she did wasn’t okay. She left for her father’s that night and hasn’t been back, is barely speaking to me and won’t speak to or apologize to her brother. She’s made it clear to me she thinks she did nothing wrong.

I’m at a loss - about how to handle my son, how to reconnect with my daughter and how to move forward as a family.

Sorry but my 16 year old has ADHD and never hit anyone at 6 or ecer. In fact she has a very strong sense of justice. She'd have given your son what for.

I think it seems like she's reached the end of her tether with his behaviour and while her reaction was extreme, you need to knock his behaviour on the head before things escalate further. And you need to work out how to make things better for your daughter. Her room is her safe space and he is not respecting that. And at 6 he should know better.

I imagine the DD does realise she went over the top but has had a belly full of little brother. Any sense and she will stay at dad's until she leaves for uni/ work.
The OP needs to work on her relationship so DD actually stays in touch and eventually want to spend time with OP and that side of her family.
In the meantime a very strong conversation with her son, actions have consequences. Hopefully she has put in consequences at home. Remind him there is always someone bigger/ stronger and if he throws his weight around expect to get a thumping and no sympathy. He won't get or keep friends either.

I think she was right. I think you were wrong in then negating her actions. You showed her he is your priority. You showed him that he controls you. 6 or not, he will know exactly which buttons to push. I feel sorry for your daughter. It would be good to show your daughter setting boundaries is ok and also protecting herself is ok. She didn't initiate this, she protected herself. She pulled his hair, she could have done so much more.

With complex SEN the 6 year old may not have learned anything in the sense people are writing about and/ or may not be able to apply that knowledge in the relevant situation ie. even if he knows his sister will react he won't be able to stop himself.

16 year old needs to learn safer ways to restrain her brother. She's close enough to being an adult that she should get to be on 'team adult' in this context with all the authority that goes with that and she should be able to learn the de-escalation and safer restraint strategies his parents are using.

With a ten year age gap, this isn't a fight between relatively equal siblings. It's a small child not respecting one of their elders. There's no way for this to ever be a 'fair' fight.

Apologies are maybe not a useful debriefing thing here - 6 year old can learn about things to do when you're angry that are safe.

So he experienced the 'find out' stage of FAFO. If you've decided she needs to apologise, do you also think your son needs to? Because regardless of undiagnosed need, it is absolutely not acceptable that he attacked her. I'm glad she's taken herself off to her dad's. It shows that she's willing and able to stick up for herself and keep herself safe.

I notice the OP hasn’t returned to the thread 🤔

God forbid.

Yep noticed that too, hope this isn’t a rage bait thread 🤔

Why exactly should your daughter apologise? She asked her brother to go away, he ignored her, he hit her

Ok he may have SEN but that does not mean he doesn’t understand what’s right and wrong. He’s wants something and he’s going to get it

your daughter in the meantime sees you focusing on her brother and not her for the 50% of her time she gets to spend with you as the other 59% she has to spend with her father.

how much time do you actually spend with just her?

Now at least her brother knows that his actions have consequences

He’s 6 and he’s the size of a 9 year old, we’re not talking a baby or toddler here. Your daughter cannot simply take his physical aggression endlessly, eventually he will over power her. Perhaps this reaction is from genuine fear on her part that he’s going to start really hurting her.

Obviously you have to address that what she did was wrong. But you also need to apologise for the fact she feels it necessary to go to these lengths. You could talk through some strategies for if he behaves like this again that do not involve hurting him (physical handling/restraint). I’d also get her a lock for her door.

As a parent there’s nothing worse than when your children hurt each other. I think I’m guilty of taking youngest side too without getting both sides of the story because they are smaller and more vulnerable. Your DS though started this and it doesn’t sound like the first time so whilst not ideal it’s not surprising she has lashed out.

I think you beeed to show your daughter you support her too by supervising your son more closely when she is there and maybe a lock for her bedroom door?

There’s been a few recently, I’m assuming this is one of them as genuine people who want advice normally reply.

This sounds very stressful and upsetting OP. I hope you're able to get the help your son needs.

You mentioned that you can normally de-escalate when your son has explosive moments. I think the issue is that your 16yo isn't going to be able to do this consistently and effectively, and it's not a fair expectation to have of her. That means you need to ensure situations don't arise where she's being tormented by her brother, because it's likely to end in one or both of them being hurt. It's already an issue, but it's only going to get worse as he gets bigger and stronger.

I would explore situations like letting her have a lock on her bedroom door so that she can protect her private space, and a safe for her belongings. You could also consider making sure that when she's home your son is always in your line of sight so that you can intervene before a situation like this escalates.

In the meantime, reassure her that you won't put her in the position of having to manage his behaviour or be hurt by him again, and that you're implementing steps to make sure it doesn't happen.

Two weeks ago this happened, you say?

And how has DS been towards her since then? [I bet he hasn't demanded her iPad or barged into her room.]

I'm not going to suggest it's okay for an almost adult to pull a six year old around by his hair. Obviously it isn't.

On the other hand.

If there hasn't been any kind of recurrence or similar behaviour on either side, might it be best to draw a line and focus on "soft hands" on DS's side and restraint/alternative responses on DD's in future?

Don't continue to demand an apology from her. In her shoes would you feel even slightly apologetic?

Also. You describe how he was "screaming in pain and fear" which sounds dreadful. But rewind a bit - he was already having a verbal meltdown and attacking his sister, wasn't he? So the screaming was just as much about outrage that somebody was defying him for a change. Truthfully it is hard not to want to give her a pat on the back.

Your language when describing the actions of your son @CandidPearlWasp and the impact on others are quite factual but when you talk about his response to feeling consequences you use emotive language. Your bias is clear.

You are concerned about the impact of your DD’s behaviour on yours and your son’s feelings but your only concern re your daughter seems to be that you feel bad she’s cut you off and won’t apologise to your son.

She is clearly at the end of her tether being expected to tolerate violence in her home and being in the wrong when she defends herself. She is not the parent who needs to show restraint and strategies. She is a child who should be protected from violence within her home and has a right to defend herself. If I was her father she would not be setting foot in your house again without some clear assurances of safety.

At the moment your son does not have a formal diagnosis. What if he is not neurodivergent? What if his behaviour is a result of learning that the way to get what he wants is to be as violent as possible? What then?
If he does get a diagnosis and part of his treatment is you enforcing boundaries and consequences will you follow through or make excuses?

I am glad for once that the responses on a thread like this mostly support the female child who has not been protected. As always there are the usual violence excusers who would see their boy children raze their homes to the ground and still make it the fault of the girl children if they were hit by the rubble, but a thankful minority.

Team DD - glad to hear she has a backbone and won't be bullied into saying things she doesn't believe. I'd be worried about a person less than two years away from adulthood who couldn't even stand up for herself to that extent. Teens who are as wet as that will turn into adults who are abused by partners or whoever else. Or, you know, women who spend their lives paying the price for shitty male behaviour whilst also excusing and enabling it, and manoeuvring other women (their own daughters, often) into doing the same.

If you really do want to repair your relationship with your dd (can't help being dubious, given the way you talk about her), start by putting a lock on her door (with a key, lockable from either side), then tell her you've done so and ask her to come home - making it clear there'll be no more crap about apologies for defending herself.

Then watch and see what happens - i.e. if he hits her again. Something tells me he won't.

Why shouldn't he learn that if you hit someone, there's a pretty high chance they'll hit you back? If he doesn't learn it from her, he'll learn it soon enough from a kid at school. Sounds like you might even be a bit jealous of DD - there's you struggling to put a stop to his behaviour, and she's just . . . stopped it? Maybe she's not the one who needs a teachable moment here.

“How to reconnect with my daughter” I would start with an apology.

It’s really important you say sorry to her that this happened to her in her own home and you weren’t there to stop it. Explain to her that you can understand why she reacted that way (you should be able to) and even though the way she reacted is not ok, it has lead you to reflect on how to do better and make sure this doesn’t happen again. If you model giving an apology where it’s due, she may decide of her own accord to say sorry to your son when she’s had time to reflect. You can’t force her into it though.

A small child?

Or a violent, explosive, tall boy?

Sounds like a difficult situation maybe you should keep a closer eye on him during this hard time.

Although I doubt he'll do it again!!!

She’s not an adult woman ffs. And the op said he was big for his age. Imagine how guarded and defensive you must feel living around - her words - a “little psycho”. He got a taste of his own medicine which is actually a lesson - albeit a painful one - in empathy. He now knows what ‘lashing out’ means and exactly how it feels to be on the receiving end of it. It would be interesting to know how successful this is as a deterrent from the sister’s point of view.

"Make it make sense"

The DD has been attacked several times by her ND brother, its not the first time and it won't be the last.

Why won't it be the last because the OP's response is that her DD was wrong and ND brother was upset.

Much that the OP doesn't want to hear it. I hope that her DD does pull back and go NC, because its the only way that she won't get assaulted again.

A question for you @LittleYellowQueen at what age will it stop being OK for the ND brother to assault people?

He invaded her privacy, hit her in the face and pulled her hair. What do you expect her to do? Respond with cuddles?

She’s not his parent, FFS. She shouldn’t have to put up with his appalling, violent, demanding behaviour and he needs to learn that if he behaves like that to other people they will lose their temper.

Frankly, I think most siblings would have thumped him, and I wouldn’t blame them, so I think your son got off very lightly.

This^
I would be also suspicious about her words “it’s always about him” . She probably felt pushed out already so her resentment was adding up. I know it’s not easy coping with violent behaviour so maybe you have to admit it to her and also make some space and time for her, even a tiny bit.
And don’t expect her apology you would be better off apologising to her for what happened. You are parent here and at the end of day you didn’t parent your son well.

Neurodiversity doesn't allow an excuse for violence. I feel very sorry for your dd. This is all so wrong.

I think we've got to a point in society where bad behaviour is being excused because the child has ADHD or some other issue. It's not an excuse for bad behaviour and it's not an excuse not to reprimand the child for their bad behaviour either.

I think if there were more consequences and less acceptance, then we wouldn't be where we are now with unruly kids thinking they are in charge and having no respect.

What your boy did was not OK. Regardless of what you think might be wrong with him. Apologise to your daughter. She shouldn't have to put up with this and by comforting your son and asking her to apologise to him, you are sending a clear message to your boy that what he did was acceptable in your eyes and didn't warrant the punishment that was dished out.

She was obviously at the end of her tether and if it does teach him a lesson, then at least you will know that his behaviour was a choice and he can control it if he chooses.

Just to point out also, hair pulling is really not a matter of strength. When you do things like this it is equally painful no matter the person doing it, in the same way that a child can stab or throw a stone to the eye or cause someone to hit their head etc just as much as someone older. Some of these things can also cause life changing injuries even when coming from a six year old. And little boys can be bizarrely strong (my six year old certainly is, he can match my strength for sure).

If you think it is fine for him to do this and the 16 year old girl shouldn't respond in kind, at what age or level of injury can she?