My children are badly behaved and I don’t know what to do

[magpiemagpuy]

DH and I have two children. Boys aged 6 & 8 and I feel I finally have to admit their behaviour feels beyond my parenting skills.

We’ve done our best but it seems we’ve missed a step somewhere and now they’re very difficult at times. I’m not sure if that’s parenting in general or just our children.

Individually they’re reasonably behaved (most of the time) but together it feels like we’re verging on them being feral.

I feel bad for them and myself if I’m being really honest because they’re actually living kind little boys but I can see why other parents may not see that.

They can be extremely boisterous. This morning they were hitting each other at home and name calling, this continued in the school playground with my youngest kicking my eldest.

At pickup they were being rough with another child whose parent looked understandably unimpressed. Pushing and shoving and because there are two of them they look like bullies.

They come home and eldest just doesn’t listen. Needs to be told numerous times to do anything and backchats/calls names and youngest slapped his brother so hard he left a handprint in his back.

Im at the end of my tether. Their behaviour is on their terms and we give time out and remove screen time as a punishment and make them apologise to people when they’re unkind but it doesn’t sink in. They just do not care.

Hoping not to be roasted for my offspring and could really do with some advice on how I can turn this around.

This isn't helpful. They're here and that's what OP has to deal with.

I wasn't backwards in coming forwards with consequences and expectations when my kids were young, but all that sounds like the 1940's.
My daughter was sent to her room if she misbehaved and it never felt like a "jail" for her, she still enjoyed going in there on her own initiative.
Of course kids need boundaries, but I have to say they don't sound like they're on a "dangerous path". They're 6 and 8, it can easily be turned round.

You've ruled out the obvious things then - exercise and being outdoors, food and drink. You're also already going through process of ADHD diagnosis with your eldest. Hats off to you for acknowledging you want things to change, and coming on here and asking for help. 6 and 8 is still young, ignore the PPs saying it's too late to change etc. It sounds like the book recommendations and specialist parenting advice are the way to go. Good luck!

I see the MN parenting experts have stepped in all with their conflicting opinions about what you should get in your time machine and change.

The fact he's on referral for ADHD assessment is hugely significant, and nothing you've said about your parenting sounds like a problem at all. Come on over to the SEN boards if you want to. I also have a younger one who probably doesn't have ADHD, but has totally picked up on some of the more successful attention-seeking behaviours of his older brother. It is very very hard. It won't hurt the younger if you approach both of them the same way. It's essentially normal parenting anyway, just a bit more careful and specific.

Big punishments won't work for ADHD - punishment has very little effect at all really. Nothing reactive/in the moment really does. Proactive parenting is the key, meaning you have to be one step ahead of them at all times. As you can probably appreciate, being one step ahead of child who is constantly at 100mph is exhausting! But the more you can do this way, the smoother life goes.

You can do reward/points charts as some people have suggested. Actually, removing certain privileges by default and letting them earn them back is a very good approach but it has to be manageable for them to achieve something. If you set the bar too high, then they will easily get discouraged and stop trying.

If you are going to do punishment, and it can be useful to have something "in your back pocket" for when you're tempted to slip into scolding or engaging in an argument - it needs to be something extremely small and token, like losing a point, or a 5p fine, or losing 5 mins screen time, or a short time out (we do 20-30 seconds per year of age for the ADHD child). Don't do long punishments which linger into the next day, don't do big dramatic things (like losing ipad for rest of day) that can only be used once a day, never use anything permanent as punishment (e.g. cancel birthday party). ADHD children tend to find being punished/told off very upsetting because it feels completely arbitrary to them. By keeping the punishment mild, it helps them get into a mindset where they can accept OK, I did that thing wrong and now I have a consequence for it, but I can handle that - and they ALWAYS get another chance to try again the next day/time/whatever. This is incredibly important because they can have such an outsized emotional reaction and really lean into "I'm bad/I never get things right/this is the most unfair thing ever", but you don't want them wallowing in that kind of thinking, you want them to reflect on their behaviour and try not to repeat it.

This is confusing because the usual assumption about punishment is that the more upsetting the child finds it, the stronger the lesson/the more likely they are to avoid that behaviour again, whereas this isn't strictly true, and it's very unlikely to be true with ADHD. The punishment won't change the behaviour anyway - it's everything else you're doing around this which will help change the behaviour.

Don't worry about making consequences related/logical. It doesn't matter. They won't register any difference at all. The only exception to this is that sometimes it makes sense to point out a natural consequence, e.g. this toy got broken because you didn't put it away - and sometimes restorative action is helpful in showing them the impact of their behaviour (e.g. helping put something right, helping pay for a ruined/lost item, doing something nice for someone to apologise.) If you need to change a boundary because of behaviour (e.g. reduce access to fizzy drinks) don't present this as a punishment/consequence.

In the moment, the most important thing is for adults to stay calm and for responses to be predictable and make sense - so it can help to work out the rules in advance and write them down, possibly even consider holding a family meeting so the DC can have input as well. You can also sometimes de-escalate in the moment by using things like humour or distraction.

Outside of the moment, looking at scenarios where you can immediately predict there will be problems is incredibly helpful and helps you come up with your proactive game plan. Sometimes there are issues due to a lack of skill or difficulty with something e.g. if a child is easily distracted, it might not be a behavioural problem, it might be that they genuinely find it difficult to "screen out" unrelated stimulus, so there might be accommodations you can make to the environment or tools they can use to help with this e.g. noise blocking headphones, or being sat in a part of the classroom where they are less easily distracted. Or if a child is always creating instead of cleaning their room as they have been asked, it's possible they are having difficulty because they don't know where to start and feel overwhelmed, so it can help to build that skill with them by scaffolding it (e.g. breaking it up into smaller tasks).

Siblings fighting may be communication or conflict management, so you could explicitly work on these skills. If I don't know what skill is behind a behaviour challenge, I've found it's actually usually a reasonable starting point to ask ChatGPT - then whatever answer it gives me, I will go looking for more reliable sources of information but it's normally right. Sometimes it suggests something I'd never even have thought of, like cognitive flexibility - but when I go and read up about what that actually is, it makes total sense and then I can usually find ideas of different games or activities to try to practice/develop that skill. (This is how I find myself playing elaborate pretend games with the DC where we swap roles and become a customer vs shopkeeper who is variously anxious, angry, easily upset, bouncy etc)

For things like taking them to a restaurant or into a shop, it can help to remind them of the behavioural expectations explicitly before you enter - decide what they should be in advance and think about issues you might come up against and prepare for them, e.g. bring an activity to do while you wait for the food which is not likely to inspire sibling wars or too much physical enthusiasm. Or look at the menu at home before leaving so they have chance to decide in advance what to eat and ordering can be as quick as possible.

Have you got any parenting books? I found ‘calmer easier happier parenting’ very effective. It’s big on ‘descriptive praise’ technique which probably wouldn’t be popular on here but it had an immediate and positive effect on my eldest DS.

‘Raising boys’ by Steve Biddulph is also great and very informative.

Lots have suggested a parenting course but they can be hard to get unless you pay. I was having huge struggles with my youngest ND son and asked if could do one, I was told they only offer them in more extreme circumstances where social services are involved with a family etc.

I would echo the previous poster that made the point of emphasising that they are a team.

I have 4 and I (touch wood) have never had to separate a physical fight. Not because of perfect parenting - but because they don't want to see their 'team mate' hurt or upset.

Also - lots of extra affection/positive affirmation worked wonders for my boisterous ones.

If you can - get rid of the iPad. I feel imaginative play/Lego/K'nex/ reading may encourage better behaviour and a calmer environment.

I know a 6 year old who becomes quite aggressive and gets into fights when they eat too much sugar / junk / sugary food, his moods go all over the place and he starts fighting with his siblings

Are they eating healthily and getting enough sleep, a lack of both of these things contribute to bad behaviour

As parenting courses go, this one is excellent and it's designed for "challenging behaviour" which includes ADHD.

Choose the version without certification and it's free. It's mostly 10 minute videos and you get something useful from the first one.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting

I think a lot of it is down to personality.

My 2 ds are complete opposites. Ds1 has always been very energetic and used to be extremely boisterous. Even in the womb he used to kick constantly and was a very ‘alert’ baby. He started tantrumming way before he turned one, I remember the HV was amazed when she witnessed one first hand when she took a toy off him to weigh him at his one year check! Thankfully he has grown out of the tantrums but still requires daily exercise to burn off energy.

Ds2 is much more relaxed and sensitive. I was amazed when he started to walk that he would happily hold my hand when we went out. Ds1 used to try and leg it or scream getting the reigns on.

It does even out though as despite ds1 being more energetic, he rarely ever gets ill. Ds2 is more easier regarding behaviour but he has allergies, recurrent tonsilitis and an awful sleeper.

One thing I learnt with ds1 is that when he was being boisterous, gentle parenting didn't tend to work. He needed a firm no and still does at times. Immediate consequences and if he used to kick off and try and hit another child at playgroups when he was a toddler, I would take him straight home.

Keep your chin up OP. I may get flamed but I do think boys are harder and more energetic in general than girls during the early years. When I used to drop ds1 off at nursery, the girls would happily sit down on the benches while the boys would be chasing each other around the school grounds. From what I’ve heard, boys are easier in general during the teen years than girls.

I’ve got three, my eldest two are a bit like this. My girl is 6 and my middle (boy) is just 4. They’re the same after school, don’t listen AT ALL or respond to their names being called, instructions etc. My boy has only just started school so we will see, but my girl is perfect at school - it’s almost unnerving at parents evening etc, because she can be absolutely feral at home. I’m at a bit of a loss with the fighting and behaviour too.
We don’t really do iPads and stuff, they watch stuff on tv but it’s just Bluey etc so I doubt it’s screen time. Loads of outside time, gymnastics for the eldest etc.
Do yours play nicely together sometimes? Mine fight a lot but they’re besties when they’re not fighting. It’s exhausting

can I ask, does your 6 year old have their own iPad? Just curious. My 6 year old has only ‘played’ on an iPad once.

My 3 and 5 yo boys were like this a bit over the holidays. I felt like they’d spent too much time together.

Like you I feed them sensible food,, no sweet drinks and give them plenty of fresh air & exercise.

They are too physical when they’re playing - it goes wrong v quickly. Got to the point over summer when I told them off they’d look at each other and laugh 🫣

What works for me is insisting they spend time separately at home but not as a punishment. I think they over stimulate each other. I think they’re starting to calm down a bit now back to routine 🤞

This sounds like a great household with lots of care, love and stimulation. You’re doing it right, OP. You just need strategies to nip physically boisterous behaviour in the bud. Lots of great advice on this thread. Ignore the silly comments - those judging you undoubtedly have the worst kids of all. We have a family friend whose child has been ‘screen free’ throughout his childhood. He’s utterly horrific in his behaviour.

What did you do when they were hitting each other and name calling in the morning?

I'm going to go against th grain here and say maybe you should reverse wha you re going. Do consequences work? If they are not working maybe you need to flip it and do reward based approach. Consequences and punishments often don't work on neurodivrse children. Time outs definitely don't. Look up Mona Delahooke. She explains how the nervous system is at th root of our behaviour. If a punishment isn't working to change their behaviour, you are only doing it to make yourself feel better and because everyone else is telling you to. https://www.on-boys-podcast.com/brain-body-parenting-with-dr-mona-delahooke/

You need to intervene instantly when they start with one another. If your oldest is ADHD you need to not lecture endlessly or give him much attention for it. Just a very loud clear short telling off then a consequence. Later help him think through how he could have responded instead. You can’t just tell them not to. You have to help them figure out how to respond instead.

I think this needs to be printed and framed

Along with “if you have child who sleeps well, it’s not because of the routine you followed, it’s because you have a child who likes sleeping and has no underlying issues”

Read How to speak so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. Punishment won't be an effective route out of this; the only route for it to go is more extreme; you need to figure out the route causes and address them, i.e. consistency of boundaries and firm consequences related to the issue they've caused.

I just want to say from the perspective of a teacher rather than a parent of primary school aged children (I have a baby) you sound like you are doing a brilliant job parenting.

Your children are really active, eating healthy meals, willingly doing chores in the home, doing lovely activities at home like Lego and puzzles, performing well academically and behaving really well in class at school. That sounds to me like children who have had a great upbringing.

Children have different personalities, and your two sound like they are more energetic and wilful than average! That doesn’t mean you are a worse parent than the mum whose two children stand quietly in the corner of the playground. You’ve been dealt a different hand and your children will have different strengths as well as different challenges. I think it’s really important to believe that parenting doesn’t 100% determine every aspect of the child - obviously it makes a difference, but they are born with personalities that include good bits and bad bits. If you blame every challenge on your parenting, you’ll go mad.

I think what previous posters have said about being boringly consistent and nipping behaviour in the bud when it’s mildly out of line, rather than when they do something really wrong, will help. We can always improve our parenting. But the initial posters claiming they have parented so well that their children never step a toe out of line are either lying or have naturally compliant children.

You can’t have it both ways and say they’re badly behaved then say you can’t be too strict. Pick one and deal with the consequences.

I've suggested this before and been roasted for it, so I expect that shall happen again.

Watch a bunch of Super Nanny. Her time out method would work very well for this age, but you must do it absolutely accurately. Her methods work. They're firm, fair and loving.

You've got the first bit right, acknowledging that their behaviour is unacceptable. Too many parents just look the other way, and that's how bullies are created. For their own happiness and learning, it's important to nip this in the bud.

Mum of boys here, they are definitely more boisterous and physical, we get name calling and fighting but only usually at home. I get complimented on their behaviour when they are out but they can be hard work at home.
Ive always compared them to 6month-3 year old male labradors 😂(I used to work with dogs)… They have massive appetites, uncontrollable limbs, make a mess everywhere and wrestle…so I make sure they have loads of exercise, good nutrition and firm boundaries, and lower my parenting bar slightly…. I also drink wine 🤣
It’s tough if you have physical boisterous children and you’re surrounded by calm sensitive ones. I longingly look at the girls in my wider family playing so nicely and joke about swapping them but just when I think their antics are about to make me lose the will completely one will run into me to tell me how much he loves me, another will make me a cup of tea and the oldest tells me I’m not too bad, as far as Mothers go, and I wouldn’t swap our crazy bashy household for anything ( apart from maybe for ones that can wee straight 🙄)

I don't think they sound too bad you're being quite hard on yourself. You say they are kind, academically doing well, and teachers are happy with them? Modern schools aren't really set up for boistrous little boys unfortunately as they need to be constantly on the move. Do they get a run around after school as well as the weekends?

A couple of things - 6 and 8 year olds don't 'need' iPads or games consoles or any screens at all really. I always find behaviour deteriorates after screen time with mine. I would just take them away for a few weeks, to re-set. Maybe just a bit of TV? Then reintroduce but much less, say only at the weekends/special occasions and only if behaviour remains good?

Do you spend much one to one time with each? It's hard to squeeze in I know but mine are much kinder to each other when we've done this.

Read 'Siblings without rivalry'- same author as the how to talk book.

Why are 6 and 8 year olds on screens?
FFS.

I read the first post and before I even RTFT I thought “I bet they have screen time/ play video games,” lo and behold, of course they do. It will be hell at first but I think one of the best things you can do is remove screens completely: 1. Because they don’t deserve them due to their behaviour and 2. Because these are probably are a main cause of their behaviour. You might want to convince yourself you can limit them, but just cut them entirely.
They obviously also need major consequences for their behaviour, it’s just unacceptable.
If and when you do get diagnosis of neurodivergence, of course deal with that, but don’t use it as an excuse for this behaviour. Kids with ADHD etc still need discipline and consequences so that kind of behaviour can be stopped.