My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

Find an Occupational Therapist with Sensory Integration Training.

@BertieBotts

Yes, anyone with an SEN child/EHCP will state woeful underfunding and a system in crisis.

I was in a situation last year where an NHS paediatrician wanted to diagnose ASD and avoid an ADOS screening (I assume to cut costs).

I insisted on an ADOS screening and a different NHS paediatrician. She stated there was insufficient evidence for ASD.

So misdiagnosis can never happen??

My daughter was born angry and would lose her temper many times a day throughout her childhood and behave terribly. It was extremely hard to deal with. She was not, however, neurodivergent in any way. Just angry, a bit selfish and often uncooperative. This was only at home, never with anyone else.

Her siblings weren’t like that at all.

She is now in her twenties and a very nice young woman. You sometimes see brief flashes and echoes of those traits, but she is also a rational adult and they never cause a problem.

I just tried to get through her childhood doing the minimum damage possible: modelling good, respectful behaviour; explaining whenever behaviour was unacceptable; and implementing consequences when necessary.

I did not succeed as perfectly as I might wish. With hindsight, I wish I had risen to the bait less in arguing with her. There is nothing to be gained by winning an argument in the moment, whereas the shouting is damaging. Success is a long-drawn-out process of making sure they understand what is and is not acceptable. A parent’s job is to remain a calm, authoritative leader.

I also think I could have relinquished more control earlier than I did. I was pretty laid-back (I firmly believe in encouraging independence) but my daughter really hated being parented and that caused conflict. Now that she entirely runs her own life and I have no say in anything, we are both a lot happier.

Nobody enjoys having their life micro-managed.

She also got hangry. Recognising and averting your child’s practical triggers is also super helpful. Sounds like a calm routine is important in your case.

That sounds more like autism to me. She is having a meltdown and nothing is right. When she is anxious, she needs things to be right. She needs to be able to control the environment. The tv dulls her thoughts and anxiety which is very high. I suggest maybe thr radio or podcasts rather than tv. It sounds sound like adhd to me not ODD. She sounds like a PDA profile autistic girl to me. You can’t battle with her when she’s having a meltdown. She needs to be supported. You need to find out what has triggered it and help her find what helps to soothe her. Suggest an occupational therapist who will give you strategies. She needs help and you seem to be treating her like she’s being bad, battling with her. Quite a sad post tbh.

Sorry you're going through this.

Regarding the potential ADHD, girls show it differently. Our daughter had all the same issues you have mentioned, said she had issues concentrating, was always fidgeting, angry and argumentative, won't accept logic or instruction etc, we asked the school, they said there was no issues, her learning and grades where as expected.
Girls mask it until they can't anymore, from what we have read puberty is a big trigger, in school year 9 she had what we could only identify as sensory burnout, she wouldn't go to school, missed most of the year. She was seen by the doctors, referred to child mental health services. Eventually 18months after 1st begin referred, she was diagnosed with ADHD. Now back in full time education, GCSE year, expected to get high grades in most subjects.

My advise is get referred to mental health services as soon as, wish we had had the foresight and got on it earlier.

No, of course I don't think misdiagnosis can never happen. I just have come across so many late-diagnosed ADHD women who were misdiagnosed with all kinds of things - depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, OCD - or perhaps these were comorbid things. But frequently treatment resistant. Dyslexia was the big one in the 90s. Loads of ND kids getting a diagnosis of dyslexia and that explains everything, 30 years later they find out they're ASD/ADHD.

ASD diagnosis is complex and ADOS is only one part. A negative result on ADOS doesn't mean someone is definitely not autistic, it needs to be taken into context with all the other things, and professionals can also disagree.

I think we are really in a much earlier stage than we would like to think with understanding all these conditions. In the meantime, information, understanding strategies and possibly medication if it's right for a particular patient can help. None of this is permanent. I don't see why it's so controversial. I'll be honest and say that I'm not unbiased - the diagnosis was life changing for me.

Sorry, I know a lot about this field and I don’t think it’s adhd. Everything you mention points to autism/PDA. Have a watch here - https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources/resource-category/webinars-and-videos/video/
She may well have adhd as a comorbid condition but i think the key one for her is autism-PDA profile.
You mentioned your brother has adhd. I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are also neurodivergent in some way. Are you aware of this?

This guy’s podcasts will change your life - https://celebratecalm.com He’s a parent to a kid like yours and if you listen to him, you’ll hear yourself in all the things he says and all things you’ve mentioned. He’s so spot on. His son is autistic (like your daughter) and he’s been on a journey with parenting styles and has his own podcast now teaching what he’s learned. He will really help you I think. He’s very famous

Helpful??

Ask her. At 9 girls (seem) to be almost 13. Ask. And ditch the obvious’rules’ and aim for manipulation! If your partner is not her father, I’m guessing this is your ? First child between the 2 of you? Took me a long while to learn that children aren’t intentionally naughty- they just lack the words.

my father said (4 decades ago) a man is alright with another man’s child, until he has his own. Somehow find the strength to reassure them. And. Remind your partner that - of the two of them - he’s the (supposed) adult !

@BertieBotts

Before my DC even started school, the school attempted to reject his placement stating ‘cannot meet needs’. I battled against this and he is in school, happy and doing really well. So, in this situation, an identification of special needs could have really worked against my child - and potentially changed his whole life trajectory.

My problem is the ‘box’ - we as adults - decide is typical. ASD, ADHD, PDA, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia are all terms we use to identify children who are not in that typical box.

I completely agree with you that we are in the early stages of understanding all this. It concerns me greatly that terms being used /what was fashionable 10 years ago (Asperger’s) can become unfashionable. But if we are getting it wrong (we have an SEN crisis on our hands) then we are failing our children.

I’m wondering if it’s better that we expand our box of typical to ensure we cater for the way children are in our changing society. As adults, we need to change our expectations, the environment and support we give before giving the child the message that they are out of a typical box.
If SEN/diagnosis etc was working, we wouldn’t be in crisis - and we wouldn’t have exclusions at a record high.

My autistic son needs sound to get to sleep. He used to listen to this man who does painting lessons on YouTube. Can't remember his name but he has a very soothing style of talking and is apparently very popular for sleep therapy.

Everyone one is free to comment. But saying what works for a NT child isn’t really understanding that a ND child isn’t going to respond in the same way

DGD has ADHD and it seems there are lots of scenes like this at home. When she stays with me I say do you want the pink pyjamas or the blue? Will you have a bath or a shower. That way she feels that she is making decisions within my parameters. I’d be inclined to take the tv out of your DD’s bedroom and settle her down with a book.Read with her or have a conversation about her feelings.

Listen to her - she tells your man that he is not her father. look at her - she is an angel at school. The two things are linked. This man, a stranger, has usurped her father's place. If you were alone, a single parent, there would have been a tiny change her dad would return, but not now, that you have a partner. Put yourself in her place. She wants your attention but she has to compete with 'this person'. And yes, she is getting your attention... but the wrong kid of attention, when you lift her bodily and throw her into her room. Do not raise your voice. Tell her you can't hear anything above a certain level. Tell her that if she does not go to her room, you will lock her OUT of her room and she will have to sleep on the couch / carpet. Play it by ear.

Go to GP and see if they can refer u for parenting lessons so learn how deal with the issues without making things escalate. If u don’t want her to watch tv y dies she have one in her bedroom?

Jeez some of you are really hung up on the tv! Do you all not read? The daughter is listening to the same episode, on repeat! As in, repetition! It works! Get off your high horses and either help this poor mum, or leave her alone!

She was very young when I split from her father. I don’t think she sees it as someone replacing him as she cannot even remember us being together.
she also talks the same to any other adult in the family. She has a very close relationship with my mother but has no problem telling her to shut up, screaming at her and also hitting her when she is in meltdown mode.
It is quite obvious that when she is having a meltdown she does not care who she hurts as it is like she has no control over herself whatsoever. When she is calm she would never speak to me, my partner, mother etc the way she does when she is out of control.

Thank you, I’m kind of just scrolling past the tv comments now, it’s obviously her way of feeling safe and calm so I’m not going to remove it off her.
she has no access to watch anything on her tv unsupervised as I literally put that episode on, put the tv on sleep timer, put the remote away and she sleeps by the time it’s finished.

And that's why you have the child you have 🤷

So your telling me my child is struggling to regulate her emotions, control her anger, unable to sit still without fidgeting and is struggling with meltdowns and has no control over herself all because she has 20/30 mins of tv every night 🤔
but if I decided to let her physically sob herself to sleep every night out of fear of having to go to sleep in the dark in silence then that’s ok then?

What worried e is that she says 'you are not my father'. Are you sure she is not being bullied at school, in a way that the teachers are not aware of it, and then she lets off steam when she is there, at home? Catch her doing something nice, and praise her for it.

Actually I took their comment to mean the opposite. Your limiting TV time and being really restrictive is causing meltdowns...

Why isn't she allowed to watch TV unsupervised?! Don't you trust her to make sensible decisions? Mine had a set amount of TV time but it wasn't supervised. I usually took the opportunity to get things done.

Me too. Only thing that switches off the whirring mind

Firstly I’m so sorry you are going through this. It feels tough and unfair - believe me I know. So I have some words of hope for you. I now have a delightful 15 yo boy who is doing well at school and in sport. But I tell you it was hell on toast getting to this point. From womb to 10yo old he pushed me so far mentally and physically. I used to fantasise about being back in my old life pre kid. Anyway it does work out eventually - stay strong. Maybe I should have ignored the behaviour more then they don’t get a reaction? Good luck ❤️