My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

@RedToothBrush 'if you are that desperate as OP'

• I think you're misinterpreting my own situation. I'm not desperate for help this end in the regard presented. I'm not asking for help as I understand what to do abd what works - parenting a child who is Autistic/PDA ( my case) which is absolutely exhausting and difficult beyond words. That's difficult not because of a TV and gaming console, but because of the way in which they're ND.

If OPs child happens to be PDA, forget everything from anyone who is not parenting in this quite unique situation.

It is not sufficiently understood that screens are helpful and have a place somewhere in these situations.

@Wishyouwerehere50 I just wanted to comment in solidarity, that no one knows the exhaustion of parenting a PDA child unless you have one. It is beyond the comprehension of most people.

I am fed up of trying to explain myself, I barely have the ability to function day to day. My whole life is tied to keeping my DD going.

Hello think exerting your authority by removing her permission to watch TV and similar will never go well. I would just try to be more understanding at this age as she may be masking at school and her frustrations come out at home. She can't help it especially if ADHD.

Definitely speak to your GP and th school again.
Just because she's ok at school does not mean she isn't neurodivergent with ASD and/or ADHD.

She sounds like a mixture of my two DC.

If she only want to know when it's time for bed, tell her when it's time for bed and don't prompt (unless of course you've tried this and get the same reaction).

She totally sounds ND to me and that's not a bad thing as it will help you to understand why she is the way she is and what you can do to support her positively

You'll always feel bad for losing your shit but know it's ok. You're not a robot mum. You're a human soul mum with feelings and it's haaaaaaaaard!!!!!
I have ADHD with autistic traits also and on Thursday/Friday I've usually reached my limit and I still have to deal with mine as calm as I can but it's really not always possible.

You're doing a good job mama

I suggest you sit down with your daughter when she is calm, and have a good talk with her. Try to find out why she is behaving well at school but badly at home.

Sorry, no offence to you personally OP, but why is it that so many naughty children are said to have ADHD? Sometimes kids just play up, push the boundaries, this is not nice but it is normal, not an illness. Instead of diagnosing them with ADHD, why not try to work out why they are misbehaving so badly? Children become angry and upset and, being too young to express it in an emotionally intelligent way, they act in out instead. Otherwise the real problem is never dealt with, and is excused away.

I could tell before I even got to that part there would be a step-parent involved

I would suggest reading Naomi Fisher “when the naughty step doesn’t work”.

Its not ideal that she uses the TV to get to sleep, but given that she does, it was a bad plan to use that as a punishment. Can you transition to an audiobook to get to sleep? But do this when she is having a good day, not at a time of high stress.

Your partner needs to have your back here. Parenting isn’t easy and step parenting is harder.

Both of you need to try and deescalate and use non confrontational techniques. If he isnt on your side then get rid.

Melatonin gummies really helped my friend's daughter who was behaving like this at bedtimes.

You have my sympathies. I think the television in her bedroom is a huge mistake. I have raised 3 kids- no screens in the bedroom. The bedroom should be a peaceful space with no distractions or stimulation. She’s 9 so should be bathed and in bed before 9 each night. Perhaps the hour before bed could be a special time for you and her. Chatting whilst she’s in the bath - what is worrying her, what she’s interested in etc. Hot chocolate, story, cuddles, lights out. Routine, routine, routine. She needs boundaries and, importantly, consequences for bad behaviour. She needs to feel safe. 🤞

You need to learn how to parent her and she needs support

If you do suspect adhd then look up how to manage children with adhd. Look at what makes them do well and what causes meltdowns and then change your parenting to see if it helps. This would also be useful evidence if you were to get an assessment. Basically when you have neurodiverse children, the usual consequences, threats, dangling locators etc don’t really work. Their brains are wired differently. You don’t need a diagnosis to try a different tactic. ADHD kids are dopamine seekers. They need things in short bursts. Lots of shorter instructions. Sensory issues are a big thing for many so wrong pyjamas can be an issue. Even if they wear those pyjamas often without an issue. Different moods can change how they respond with sensory issues. .Same with the toothpaste. As others have mentioned, any attention is what they seek. Positive and negative. Shooting at them won’t really de escalate issues. It gives them something to react to. You have to be calm and not react to the negative things. Don’t necessarily let them get away with stuff but just make more noise for the positive things.

There is a form of autism called pathological demand avoidance. Have you looked into ADHD/ASD assessments? It sounds exhausting and I’m so sorry you are going through this.

Sounds like she needs a therapist specializing in DBT to teach her emotion regulation and distress tolerance skills.

And how is that then? This has been an ongoing issue since way before I met my partner?

I have spent the last few days readibg up on how to manage children with ADHD and am going to put the strategies in to place over the next few weeks and see if it helps 🤞🏻
Hopefully if it does, like you say could help me when it comes to getting an assessment.
After being brought up with a younger brother with ADHD i have no doubt in my mind that she has it or something along them lines.
My mother has said since she was a young age that she thinks there is something there, I have always been the one to shrug it off and tell her 'don't be silly she's just being a bit naughty' or 'she's just hyper' but as the years have gone on and things have just got worse and worse I honestly do believe it's not just her kid behaving and that there is in fact something happening that she cannot control 😔
I just hope the school/gp can get us the help she needs.
I'm not even 100% that if she does have it that I would want to jump to medication but just think that if she is diagnosed then atleast I know then what needs to be put in to place to help her

I am hoping to have a meeting with the school next week, also to book an appointment with the GP and get an assessment although I know it is a long process 😔 depending how long the wait is I am willing to see options about going private.

She does usually have a pretty solid bed time routine, but it is hard as on occasion I do have to work until 8-9pm then routine goes out the window a bit as I can't just get home and put her straight to bed as she gets upset as she hasn't seen me so them later nights by the time I get home, spend some 1to1 time with her and chat about her day then getting her in to bed at a reasonable time seems rushed and a bit hectic which then in turn never ends in a calm bed time
Luckily it's not a weekly thing me having to work late but when I do it obviously does tend to mess things up

Oh my , do some research on what Tv does to children’s brains. Why on earth would you let a nine-year-old ever have a television in their bedroom? None of my kids were allowed TVs in their bedroom or screens until they were 15

I have been in contact over email with a therapist who specialises in children's behavioural therapy and am arranging a consultation, I am unsure wether DD will be on board with it to be honest, she's not keen on talking to people she doesn't know, but hopefully as this therapist specialises in working with children then she may get her to come around.

I'm not saying the tv in the room is right but I am a bit shocked how many people on here think it is so appalling and wrong for a child to have a tv as I think 9 out of 10 of people that I know all let their children have a tv in their room, I know a lot of boys her age that have game consoles etc in their rooms.
I had a tv in my room at her age, and so did all of my friends, we would always watch a film in bed at sleepovers etc, it's a normal concept for me, whether it is right or not.

I have always thought the same that "their not ADHD just naughty" but when you have to live with it and can clearly see everyday that it's not just naughtiness it's something that cannot be controlled then you start to realise that there is in fact something wrong.
She cannot sit and watch a film with us or play a board game without getting up every few mins and just walking around in circles, she cannot sit and do homework or concentrate on anything without tapping her feet, her hands or jumping up and down, she constantly has to fidget and move about, wether that be playing with her hair, sometimes I see her in school concerts etc where she can't run about and she's literally bitting her own tongue/lips without realising or scratching her arms, it is not just about the bad behaviour the reasons I think she has ADHD

Look at NHS right to choose to get her assessed,my 14 yr old has just been diagnosed autistic, we thought more ADHD but look up autism in girls. Mines masks in school but explodes at home, is violent, doesnt sleep, routine and everything takes hrs, bedtime takes 3+ hours,diagnosis mentions demand avoidance. School saw nothing & gave little evidence other than poor attendance, the assessor saw through her masking. It is completely draining and a strain on your relationship, I've just booked a drs appointment due to the stress & I'm waiting for counselling.

I used to tear my hair out with my daughter’s behaviour which sounds similar. I just couldn’t understand why she never seemed to learn when she was punished for bad behaviour. I often said she had no survival instinct. She was quite an handful at home but as good as gold at school. She also went on to develop debilitating anxiety, OCD and school refusal. Turns out she is AuDHD and once she was diagnosed at 14 so much made sense about her behaviour. Perhaps neurodiversity is worth looking into? It’s taken the patience of a saint to deal with it all but the diagnosis was quite a turning point for all of us. (Of course, if this isn’t relevant please ignore 🤪)

OP I would stop responding to the TV to fall asleep pearl clutching, it's a red herring.

It does help some ADHD kids. The fact it would be counterproductive for 99% of kids is irrelevant. It's helpful for yours. This is really clear, but there will be hordes of people who haven't read the full thread picking it up, or people making a very wrong correlation that your DC has TV in room and difficult behaviour whereas theirs doesn't have either, therefore the TV is the problem. TVs in rooms don't cause ADHD, whereas family history is highly predictive of it, so ignore them.

In terms of the PDA link, I am not sure if I really see PDA as a separate thing or part of something under the general ND umbrella, and sometimes get a bit frustrated with some of the online narratives around it, but the Declarative Language website is EXCELLENT. I haven't read that many of the articles, but every single one I've been astonished at how spot on and helpful it is. https://www.declarativelanguage.com/declarative-language-faqs

In general for my ADHD kids I find I need to be more of a mentor than a benign dictator. Being dictated to doesn't work for them. Autonomy/responsibility and being taken seriously with you being on their side, but acting as the safety barrier works much better.

How much do you know about nervous system regulation? The book Big Baffling Behaviours by Robyn Gobbel has been the #1 most helpful thing I've read on this topic and I think it would likely ring very true for you. The therapist sections are a bit naff IMO but it's worth it anyway.

If you have ADHD in the family it's quite possible that you also have it yourself, and ADHD parent getting to the point where they are wound up by ADHD child can be a particularly explosive/difficult combo, no matter how many tools you have or how patient you are.

I hope the meeting with school is productive.

Just reading through some of these messages and it’s really clear some people have no experience of this type of behaviour. It may seem like naughty behaviour from the outside but it’s not. These kids (I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest neurodiversity as per my last post) have stamina like you wouldn’t believe. My daughter could sustain a ‘tantrum’ for hours and hours at night (always at night) I did rapid return for 6 months when she was about 7 or 8, every night. I was utterly utterly broken and she showed no sign of giving up. I spent about a year sleeping on her floor trying to keep her in her bed. She was 13 before she slept a full night. OP from my quick scan of this thread you sound like a great parent as does your partner. I hope you find some support. For what it’s worth we’ve found CAMHS utterly useless and school weren’t interested as she was great there so we had to go private for some help. Expensive but been worth every penny. (Ps my DD doesn’t take ADHD meds, she didn’t like them but just us all understanding her a bit better and parenting accordingly has been really helpful)