My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

If she’s an angel in school it sounds like a reactive thing rather than ADHD surely? She’s reacting to the situation at home. Does she have jealousy and insecurity issues with the new baby and ‘step dad’ situation?? If so she’s perhaps working on getting as much of your time and attention as possible. Negative attention is better than no attention for kids sometimes. Can you do rewards of dedicated time spent together doing stuff she enjoys if she’s good at bedtime? Maybe an hour together crafting or baking or whatever if she goes to bed without fuss the night before. You’ll have to keep your word tho and be consistent if it’s going to work.

It's hard on these threads because you never know which ones truly have experience of children like this

If not already suggested- make an appointment with your school nurse. I didn’t even realise this was a thing (certainly never mentioned in all my dealings with the school!). They were really helpful with signposting for help and advice, and actual support.

I don't think it is It stands out a MILE who doesn't have experience because they are sitting there listing out all the things OP is clearly doing wrong because their own perfect DC would never act like this. No recognition of the fact it's hard or the things OP is already doing well. Plenty of armchair psychology.

I have only read some of the thread. Just came to say, in solidarity, that it's really tough. She sounds like my son. You will get as many suggestions and recommendations as there are stars in the sky....but to me its not anything you have done or not done, sounds like you are trying your best to manage things and these often fall flat anyway because of how she reacts. It does sound like ADHD or PDA profile of autism but remember even if you get a diagnosis it won't change the behaviours...... I am at my wits end with DS (also 9, diagnosis of ASD and awaiting assesment for ADHD so i can get medication for him cause nothing else works). It's so hard when they say horrible things that they know will upset and hurt us. It's very hard on the rest of the family too. Your DH has gotten some criticism but honestly he is probably just so frustrated. I find my DS's sister gets incredibly frustrated by him and the constant drama and arguments, but I can understand because I love him unconditionally but he still drives me demented at times. So it is very hard on other family members. I try to do enjoyable things together as a family sometimes to promote positive relationships, but even this is tricky.
Anyway. Sending you a hug. And hope that there will come a time when we aren't crying ourselves to sleep anymore and things have improved. We need to hold on to that.

Yeah perhaps you're right

I think I find it hard because like OP when you have a child that is shall we say more explosive, and you get so many people like on the thread saying 'just come down harder and it'll all be sorted' or ' do this or that and bam it's ok' and so much conflicting advice, I doubt myself and you can't help thinking maybe you're doing it all wrong. Because it's hard to feel sure of yourself anyway

I recently developed adhd/manic symptoms which left me unable to sleep. I'd try absolutely everything like white noise, music, no phone, etc etc. I couldn't settle at all, and my thoughts just wouldn't shut up, it was actually terrifying. I could mask at work (working from home) but not in my free time, and I was absolutely exhausted. My issue was a problem with my psych medication which is now resolved but it really got me thinking about what adhd/bipolar can be like. It sounds like she does need to see a doctor or counsellor and talk through things. I'd also compromise on letting her have the radio or am audio book on at night if that helps her settle.

What a lovely post.

It's incredibly frustrating as you know; traditional parenting; well rip up the handbook and start from scratch. Unless people live it, no clue.

I feel for the parents who are at the stage of being continually blamed and very confused why parenting is not working and nowhere near accessing an assessment.

Flowers to you fellow mum! 💐

You say you can go private for an assessment OP. Just do it. I'd fund your own provider, I'd make Autism the priority for assessment. Sometimes you don't get both ADHD and ASD assessed. It's important the assessor follows the NICE guidance.

School may be incredibly unhelpful. They may convince you everything is ok. They may provide minimal information to support an assessment. This is very common. There are threads all over here with mums in this situation.

Our school SENCO provided no information to show anything of use and a request to assess by the NHS was rejected because of this.

So when we went private, it was one of the best, multiple professionals involved. I paid for an in school observation as part of it. Well, the final report diagnosing gave an overview of someone so different in the classroom, struggling with so many issues, with peer interactions, all sorts. Staff in the playground gave lots of info kindly to reinforce all this.

The school SENCO was saying nothing going on before all this and tried to get me to go away! They do this and you must not listen.

Listen to the expertise of an accredited professional you find. Good luck! And enjoy your screens together 😉😀x

I'd definitely make appointment to see Dr. I'd also wonder if she complains to her birth father and he tells her your DP isn't her father and can't tell her what to do.
What is her behaviour like when she's with her DF every other weekend? Does she want to spend more time with him? If Dr says there's no reason for her behaviour then rather than shout, try ignoring her, say I'll speak to you when you SPEAK to me and not yell. Maybe she thinks by playing up you and DP will split up and you'll get back with her BF,

She sounds stressed and I think she and you could use a psychologist (possibly a play therapist) to investigate how she’s feeling. There will inevitably be a looonnng waiting list unless you could stump up for private sessions.

I will admit, none of the parents I know allow a TV in the bedrooms, including for teens. I find it quite a strange idea to allow a child their own TV and phone as it’s just Not Done where I live!
Moving on from that, my AuDHD child (11) needs tightly regulated screen time or she gets like you describe. Max 30 mins a day, and lots and lots of physical exercise. It’s like without those two things her ability to self regulate goes out of the window. She has so much energy to burn off it’s crazy, and if it’s not burned off then no one gets to sleep. Hormones may be starting to ramp up too, which will be intensifying it all. She and I put together a playlist of gentle music (classical, instrumental only, no voices) that helps her to sleep, and she listens to that each night. Might be worth trying similar?

And yes, the aggression and bad behaviour are really really hard to cope with, but I just keep reminding myself that when she is giving me a hard time it’s because she is having a hard time. And I have put an armchair bed thing in her room, so on nights when she can’t sleep and needs someone there, I can at least rest comfortably. It’s not ideal, but I’m just trying to find ways to manage / mitigate things.

Have you tried magnesium supplements or the foot spray it’s worked wonders on my 7 year old and her mood has improved dramatically she is back to the happy little girl she was last year xx

You can make out like you didn’t want to do it. 😂😂😂 Then the answer is Why then are you doing it.**
I'm doing it because it's my job as the parent to make the tough decisions that will teach them respect and social skills in the long-term

As you said the school don’t think there is anything wrong with her so she doesn’t need teaching social skills and you cannot teach someone to have respect. What you are demanding is that she masks at home as well

That just means there is no release, no off down time and that isn’t good.
For someone diagnosed with adhd you must know that. You must also know that adhd covers different issues. Whilst you might be ok with some things it doesn’t mean that she is. As someone who scored 9/9 in all 4 areas I understand exactly what your DD’s going through.

Demanding obedience, you might get it at some point but at what cost. A child growing up having to act nicely at school then coming home having to act perfectly at home. (You can’t say you don’t want perfection you just want her to be herself, but only a little bit as you have already said you dont actually like her being herself. You can’t cherry pick) You will never know her true feelings on anything

It’s called masking

It's like reading my life 3 years ago. My happy, sunny girl turned into a ball of anger and frustration at home. She'd goad her dad, always a couple of hours before bedtime, we could set our watches by it and every night it'd turn into a shouting match or us walking on eggshells not to set her off. It was like she needed the release of shouting and crying. It looks really basic written down, but it was absolute hell in the house every night.

Anyway, it turned out she's Autistic and has ADHD and is a little ball of anxiousness on top. Very high masking out of the home, so nobody else had ever seen the behaviour and that made it very hard to get taken seriously by school and the GP.

9ish is the ripe time for these behaviours to start showing, friendships start to change and it all gets very confusing.

The good thing was that once she got the diagnosis she started to understand herself and her triggers and we did too. There's still ups and downs, and high school is a nightmare some days, but I mostly have my happy, sunny girl back. Well, as happy and sunny as teenage girls can be 🤣

I'd recommend doing some reading up yourself on autism and adhd in primary school girls and see if anything resonates with you and her 💐

Sorry to hear this. This sounds tough and I have 3 children so I understand parenting is very challenging. As a sendco though, my experience of adhd and odd has shown me that it would be hard to get a diagnosis in this case because paediatricians ask to see evidence of this behaviour across at least 2 settings. So school, home and maybe an extra curricular club. Also with ODD, behaviour interventions are usually quite effective so they would recommend parenting courses first to see how that works when you change your approach first before they consider there to be enough evidence to diagnose. The school can help with support though they can do an early help assessment and see what is out there in the community to support you. Or try low level interventions from CAMHS etc. Make sure you get support for yourself too if you can because it is so hard as a parent going through this.xx

Morning OP.

I would just like to thank you for this thread. I have an 11 yo that I am really struggling with at the moment, awaiting camhs diagnosis of autism/adhd/pda and life at the moment is frankly, shit!

After yet another night exactly as you describe i am tired. And I dread her waking up this morning to start it all again tbh. I'm not a good mum at the moment, (I have a 19 yo ds as well who was a dream to parent as he is NT).

I have said a few times of late that I hate her,(not to her before anyone starts, although I find it on the tip of my tongue sometimes) and I am finding it very hard to find my love. It's there, i hope, but it doesn't feel present at the moment. Everything feels like a battle and I'm exhausted. I need to get out of the selfish mindset that my life is ruined but I'm in a bit of a rut at the moment because I can't see the wood for the trees.

Its so easy to spot the parents of children who are NT and have absolutely no experience of ND kids on this thread, you can feel the self richeousness through the screen. I used to be one of those people too, so can spot it a mile off. My daughter has humbled me greatly.

Anyway, thanks for this, the (helpful and kind) replies have really helped me too, and the fact that I'm not alone in my struggles. I'm going to take on some of the advice that has been posted as well, and see how that helps.

Sorry for making this about me 😂 but I guess I just want to say how relatable (mostly, I see you perfect parents) this post has been and how it has come at a good time for me personally. Thanks again x

OP you have my sympathies. My DS (9) diagnosed ASD needs calm environments and a slow, gentle routine. He implodes when he's overwhelmed, and takes himself off to his bedroom where he has a range of sensory resources to help him regulate a little, then he'll call for me to join him in there for 'a little chat' as he calls it, and I can support him from that point. Before then, I have to completely keep out of his space, which feels really unnatural when I know he's in crisis, but I really do just have to leave him to work some of it out himself before he's ready for any kind of co-regulation.

DD(6) on the assessment pathway for AuDHD and PDA, she thrives on lots of activity, and is explosive when she's overwhelmed. She often lashes out, but then gets deeply upset afterwards because she hates that she's hurt people. She's not a horrible child, she just gets overwhelmed beyond all reason sometimes, which sounds a lot like your DD. This is beginning to happen at school as well. She's academically behind, finds her work difficult, and doesn't like that she's often doing something different to her peers. She's responding well to ELSA sessions, and has just been referred this week to an emotional resilience nurse, we're hoping that will help. Does your DD get (or could she get) access to similar support services? I've noticed a marked improvement in her communication about her feelings since starting the ELSA sessions, she's now able to articulate how she's feeling, and often identify the trigger, which has been interesting, as it's often not what you would think, so the efforts being made to help her regulate are ineffective. I'm hoping the nurse will be able to help her take the next step and begin to take some control back over her feelings.

It's difficult as I'm a single parent and their needs are so very different. Trying to balance both is sometimes frankly impossible. The only way we even close to manage is with a stringent routine, and a LOT of communication around transitions as PP have said. I appreciate that it's much easier for me to do that than it will be for you as my working hours are fixed, and I don't have a baby in the house, but as fixed as you can possibly manage is likely to help things run a little smoother. Our bedtime routine for example is several hours long, starting at dinner time. We don't have screens after dinner. We have a cupboard in the living room full of games and puzzles which we play together. We alternate which DC chooses the game. We then have washing, teeth brushing, PJs etc, followed by story time. DS reads alone for a while so I can read a story to DD, then she has lights out, then I go and read a chapter to DS before his lights go out. Story time is often when they will choose to tell me things that are worrying them, so that bit of 1:1 time every day is really helpful for us.

I have recently had a provisional diagnosis of ADHD and have been referred. My psychotherapist said that it's common for ADHD sufferers to want to have the TV on in order to get to sleep as it distracts them from all the "whirring thoughts" that goes on in the brain. Good luck!

Hi OP, I don’t have much advice, but the screens/tv on low at bedtime does resonate with me as a teen, I used it to quiet my anxiety. Could you think about trying audiobooks? I have an audible subscription and my son listens to it at bedtime, very lightly on the spectrum, and he will listen to the same book over and over if he likes it. It doesn’t keep him from sleeping, and if you find a series she loves, it may be a positive switch from the tv. maybe start by listening in the car together, we did this on a road trip and went from nothing to please a bit more, he was hanging out to hear more of the story.

As the parent of a recently diagnosed ADHD/ASD 11yo girl, OP you've had a bit of a bashing on here. I haven't read the whole thread, but so much of what you say mirrors our experience with DD. Particularly the feeling like you are 'never enough'/ can never meet her demands, and the bedtime meltdowns (we had one here - screaming (her, not me!) until 11pm. The triggers for DD are mainly social (she finds navigating friendships incredibly difficult) and the transition to secondary was hard ('wheels came off', as they typically do for ND kids).

We still haven't figured out what works consistently. And, in fact, a pyschologist told me that one of the challenges is that things tend not to work consistently with ND kids. Which is tough, cos you can feel like you've cracked it and then it all goes to shit again.

What what has worked, relatively consistently, is lower-demand parenting. We're still figuring our way through this. But certainly fewer demands help as we realised DD was just being baraged with constant 'do this, do that, don't do the other' (because ND kids need a lot more prompting just to get basic shit done).

Also, turning things around to give her more control. So rather than 'your light has to be out by 9.30' instead 'it's a school day tomorrow, what time do you think your light needs to go out'. DD is sensible and a 'good' kid, so she'll make sensible decisions. And then us being more flexible - so if she asks for an extra 5 mins reading, giving it to her is the quickest way to getting her to sleep (cos if we say no it leads to an argument which can often escalate). So, basically a higher level version of 'pick your battles'.

I've had to let a lot of my 'standards' go. But there are still boundaries and expectations.

Hang in there! It's a rollercoaster - after the dips there will be an up (and on and on...)

@ym56 are you me?!? I could have written your post. Same age DD. Horrible night last night. Often feel like I hate her (I don't really, obviously) and that our life is totally fucked. Had some very dark days in the past 18 months.

So sorry to hear you're struggling too. We will get through this!

Looking after myself is important (although so hard when you have a child that doesn't settle until 10/11 most nights - there is no space for me or DH) and trying to keep my resilience up so that I can cope with DD's needs.

It's so fucking hard. And parents of NT kids just don't get it and it's really hard to explain what makes it so hard.

I knew adults engaged in masking, but I didn’t realise young children did this. I still say that too many children are diagnosed with a neurological condition when their upset is psychological.