My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

She sounds overwhelmed and exhausted.

Please stop taking things away as a punishment. If you do suspect ADD or ASD then there can often be a disconnect between doing something wrong and you taking things away. It doesn't work and it's just causes the child to feel hurt and confused.

It sounds like possible Pathological Demand Avoidance combined with them trying way too hard to "act normally" at school which leads to exhaustion and burn-out. Think how you feel when you're super-tired to the point that everything is wrong. You can end up screaming like a wounded animal.

If you are getting school reports for a model student then that's a very obvious clue. It could also be a response to the new baby especially if you've expected them to act more responsibly now you've a baby. Also the idea that you won't want her because you have new baby with new person.

I think if you find out the cause, you might find the symptoms go away. For PDA, offering choices can help, especially time ones. Give a sense of autonomy. Don't get involved in decisions about PJs! Let her put on whatever.

My son is the same and we suspect autism. He was assessed by CAMHS and they gave us lots of useful advice.

The bit that really stuck with me the most was that neuro divergent children can learn to 'behave', to follow rules, accept when something is a no, it just takes them longer. They told me that setting the same boundaries for them as you would the rest of the family is important and that we shouldn't give in just because "they can't help it". They may find these behaviours hard to control but they can learn.

Our son is now 8 and things are getting better. In our case, telling him off / shouting / etc just made things worse. We would just set him off and that was it - meltdowns, breaking things, banging, etc... We now have to 'performative' parent and almost joke and turn most things into games for him to listen. We set firm boundaries and expect them to be followed but try not to get angry and use a more encouraging or jokey voice.

Also lots of advance notice of what's going to happen and when and managing his expectations.

One thing I've noticed from your post is that your child has a phone and an iPad. Why? Seems crazy to me for a 9 year old to have a phone. It also seems like she has way too much screen time, even with the limits you say you've put in place.

One thing I notice with my son is that access to screen time makes things much much worse. He is only allowed screen on the weekends - 30 mins each day (although we'll sometimes go up to an hour a day) and holidays.

We also do a family movie night on Friday evening after-school.

Have you considered taking away her devices and reducing screen time? Not making it into a punishment - just making it the rule at home. Watch the documentary on C4 Swiped: The School That Banned Smartphones

Does she have any physiological symptoms ... Also OCD, separation anxiety, toileting issues, restrictive diet, tics? If not then PDA would be my guess

Look into PANDAS/PANS

but why is it that so many naughty children are said to have ADHD

What you call naughty behaviour is a symptom of having a brain that isn’t the same as a NT person.

I wonder if instead of saying someone has ADHD we call it by the actual problem and not the symptom

Saying why is it that so many naughty children have Dopamine Deficiency help you understand the issue

Dont forget that ADHD can actually be diagnosed from brain imaging.

ADHD isn’t something new. Millions of us have suffered with this for our whole lives and it is only now with SM and the spread of information are people realising that they aren’t lazy or stupid or naughty. They have ADHD.

From a NT’s view point we get called lazy and stupid when we are working harder than any NT to fit into a NT world

I take it that your 3 children are NT

The way I see it is if she is PDA/ASD or adhd.

Try a 4 week trial of very low demand parenting. If you see improvements in stress levels then it's worth while. If not you can try the heavy handed approach. I'm willing to bet low demand reaps a calmer more regulation and a happier child.

Get the whole family on board tho. It's only a trial.

I can't do any harm to try it.

There's a book called 'low demand parenting' I was considering buying. Has anyone read this or can recommend similar?

@PhotoFirePoet if you read every post here from parents of ND kids, it may make sense why the ND likelihood has been arrived at.

Most importantly, it has come from OP, the mother. No matter what we feel regarding parenting style, her instincts work just fine. She's arriving at this herself; we all validate it, because she's right, her daughter is ND.

If more women had faith in their own instincts, we wouldn't have all these upsetting threads on MN.

The ' naughty child' fable perpetuated here is as helpful as the ' refrigerator mother" theory tbh.

All kids can behave in unpleasant ways. Ways that require a response. The 2 issues can co exist. ( Being ND and behaviour expressed requiring action).

I agree she may be intentionally kicking up more behaviour wise due to the boyfriend. Of course OP desires a life, desires support. Biological imperatives make this situation so hard to make work. This is why I feel it's helpful if OP has any capacity to spend time alone with her partner. Ltb is rarely easily achievable for people on here and I understand why.

I understand and apply the theory based on guidance online,support groups and in keeping with the book by Ross Greene ' Explosive Child ' approach.

I find it slightly problematic. Because I feel too much low demand can make some parents feel resentful. I do tbh so have to work on what's a good compromise.

It's important not to go too far and fall into a slightly wet ineffectual parent. I saw myself doing that once and then just reacted in frustration and anger actually at seeing it. ' I'm not having this nonsense ' sort of reaction I felt. 😆

It's worth trying it out gradually. For example, do they really need to wear pyjamas? Well no, so stop stressing over that. Do they really need to shower daily, could you do every other day? ( These are huge battle areas for many mum's in this situation).
Give choices. Sometimes, it's worth saying ok forget your teeth tonight then. Tomorrow, you'll spend twice as long??

Or, ok forget your teeth then. How about a quick mouthwash instead?

Only parents of ND kids will ' get ' all the above. If it feels alien to anyone then feel comfortable in the fact you don't understand or face these daily battles.

We’ve found brown noise ie rainfall to be very helpful in calming down. We tell Alexa to play it

Sleep jar on Alexa is brilliant. I love those sounds myself. They even have a fan noise option 😆. 'Thunderstorms' is truly beautiful background noise on sleep jar, my fav.

Brown noise is also wonderful at cutting out neighbour noise in some instances..
this one is good..{Turn off ''stable volume'' according to the video maker}

The sounds in your link reminds me of a storm, with winds outside at sunset.

I might try that tonight for myself!

Are only people with ND kids allowed to sympathise and make suggestions?

Ditch the phone (I mean, just why?!), the iPad and tv. It will be horrible, but get back to basics and then see if you have a real issue or just a very overstimulated dd with access to far too much tech than is good for them.

Sorry haven't read full thread, so might be repeating.
I have ADHD and so does my 8yr old...a few tips that work for us...
Visual timers for getting ready in the morning, so they can see the time passing.
Sticking to the same routine all the time, so they know what to expect, ADHD kids don't do well with transitions (switching from one task to the next,) so make sure too prep them...in x minutes we have to do y.
You have to feed them your calm as they struggle to regulate emotions, you escalate they will match you plus 10!! It feels like they need harder discipline, they don't!! They need fim boundaries so they know where they stand, but delivered in an understanding and supportive way. Calm the emotion first then talk about the behaviour after. ADHD kids are roughly 30% behind their peers in impulse control and emotional regulation...so at 9, your dealing more with the level of a 6yr old.
Conflict gives them dopamine, so if they aren't getting it elsewhere an argument is as good as anything to them.
If you can afford saffron supplements, there are clinical trial that show it help hyper behaviour (30mg) they're not cheap unfortunately.

That's what I can think of off of the top of my head.
Search Russell Barkley on YouTube to understand more about it.

Hope this helps if only a little bit. X

Oh and I can't sleep to silence either!
I have rain and piano music playing my son has the sleepy sheep on his toniebox.

The pervading sense throughout posts here is certainly not SYMPATHETIC. I can't recall the content and tone of your particular posts, apologies.

NT parenting techniques are futile if ones child is PDA.

There's a common tendency towards no empathy, no understanding and instead shame, ridicule and incredibly unhelpful left field suggestions on threads like this. We can usually always discern from those posts that the parents don't have ND children or certainly not kids who present the unique challenges of the PDA profile.

There is quite a debate in the press ATM about ADHD mis or over diagnosis. From the BMJ:

'While social media has been instrumental in spreading ADHD awareness, it is crucial to approach the information with caution, as the accuracy and reliability of the content can vary significantly.
'Misinformation on these platforms may lead to misconceptions about symptoms, diagnosis and treatment.'
They added: 'There is a pressing need for research into effective methods for vetting and moderating ADHD-related information on social media platforms to ensure that awareness efforts do not inadvertently spread misinformation.”

I don’t think we should shut down discussions about this.

What if ‘gentle parenting’ IS at fault. Surely that discussion is a very, very important one.

Gentle parenting according to Psychology Today, has very little research behind it, It also recognises how totally exhausting it is for the parent. A parent using this method is likely 1) to be at their very limit with a child who continues to be disruptive
2) be very unlikely or willing to change having spent so much time overthinking their approach

I think it’s a HUGE, HUGE problem if we are jumping to find fault with a child BEFORE addressing the support and environment they are given/in.

I agree. I also think there is minimal evidence behind masking - one person’s masking is another person’s regulated behaviour.

We are making no distinctions between physiological brain differences and behavioural issues that are a response to environment (including poor home and school environments), and applying a one sized fits all term that discourages further evaluation.

If she has ADHD you have to parent differently.

It doesn't matter what 9 out of 10 other people in your social circle do (this isn't definitely not the case in my social circle for 9 year olds to have a TV in their room).

Two reasons. Dopamine and how certain kids - particularly those with ADHD - respond differently and how it affects sleep. Try and find something else that does the noise (white noise machine) without the stimulation of blue light. My son has a nightlight and white noise machine for these reasons because he does not sleep and bedtime has been a battle ground for years. We have learnt that fighting with him over bedtime isn't a good idea, but we also make sure that he doesnt have toys / devices in his bedroom so that when he goes to bed, it's a room for sleeping not continuing to do other things. He does now eventually go to sleep.

The other thing is if it's ADHD, your kid is a lot more vulnerable to various influences than other kids. Some because they are more vulnerable to getting addicted/fixated on something. Others because they don't have the ability to process adult things. And others because they are more likely to be risk takers. A TV in a room is a recipe for disaster because you can't control and be aware of what they are watching on live broadcast. You can only control app access. And don't get me started on the number of parents who think YouTube is ok. My friend has been caught out on this and was horrified when her some started having nightmares and she found he was watching some puppet thing with adult content. She thought because it was puppets and his friends were watching it, it was a kids thing.

The whole 'well everyone else is doing it, so what's the problem' attitude is a dereliction of parental responsibility. How do you know any of the other parents have checked it's ok? Kids also get wise and realise it's a bargaining tool with their parents to pester for something. And other kids having something doesn't mean it's a good thing for your own child anyway.

If you have an ADHD child, then you might take lines of least resistance on some things - that fair enough. But you also need to still be careful WHAT you do that on and why, and whether it might cause you other problems later down the line.

I'm also not a screen nazi. I don't think banning mobiles is useful. So I'm not saying no tech. I'm saying tech has to be used wisely particularly for ADHD kids with clear boundaries you stick to and don't cave on because it's a bad day. Consistency is key. And so yes one of the problems is how do you remove something once you've introduced it? It's going to cause issues. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't remove it, if you realise it's long term going to cause greater issues.

Honestly when I see the 'well everyone else is doing it' argument - particularly with ADHD involved I do have to say, 'but your child ISN'T like everyone else' to stress how you need to think as an individual rather than merely follow the crowd.

Advice for ADHD will consistently stress issues with screens and issues about bedtime (relating to dopamine and blue light issues). There's a reason for this. No one is saying this to be a dick.

If anything ADHD kids need more parenting than kids who aren't. They need clear and consistent boundaries. They need good routines. Verbal warnings that a transition time is about to happen are useful ("ten more minutes and then we need to go", "five more minutes" "ok now its 8pm, it's no more screens") but not making things a battle zone around bedtime other than saying well time is over to do 'fun stuff'. And stressing they can have time the next day as a reassurance.

Parents of kids with ADHD who fail to recognise this, and go with the approach of copying peers, seem to have particular issues. You can't just let your kid do the same as all their mates because it's not right for them. Because they are different.

DS did not sleep before age 6/7. He was still waking us 4 times a night every night. We've tried everything with sleep routines. Book, bath, bed is bollocks. It doesn't work because he ultimately just wanted input and got massive fear of missing out. (If there's a new partner in the mix, then yes insecurities and jealousy over time with mum might well be in the mix). So you manage the issues over input and learn to reassure and understand this FoMO.

This isn't super nanny. It's not being strict. It's recognising what makes them go off their tits.

If they go nuts at the removal of a tablet/tv, then actually ask yourself are they actually addicted and are they displaying behaviour that is akin to withdrawal? If it is, ask yourself questions from that...

So children should only show respect to their parents and no one else? 😳

"Misinformation on social media" is talking about tiktok videos which list totally normal aspects of life (like boredom and procrastination) and suggest everyone who has ever experienced this definitely has ADHD, not parents of diagnosed ADHD children sharing what has and hasn't worked for them.

And yes, it's ridiculous that the situation is such that parents have to look for information online. If extensive support was offered after diagnosis that would be brilliant. Unfortunately it is not usually the case. Therefore, speaking to the lived experience of others (and bearing in mind it is only their experience) is an extremely helpful resource.

The press loves a row about ADHD but that doesn't mean it's an accurate picture of what's happening at the level of scientific research/medical policy. It seems to hit a hot button at the moment to do with some combination of identity politics and narratives involving disability benefits.

I am much more worried about the extreme backlogs and wait lists for people to be assessed than I am about overdiagnosis. The number of people in any age group with a diagnosis in the UK is well under estimated prevalence rates.

ADHD has been studied for decades, I know the UK has acted like it was a totally new idea which appeared in about 1997, but modern studies had been around for about 30 years at that point, and it's been found over and over again that parenting is not at fault, and in fact when you compare ADHD kids on and off their medication with their own parents (so everything else about the situation is the same) the parenting is BETTER when the children are on medication. Which I can only guess is because whatever they were measuring as "good" parenting works better and the parents aren't continually at the end of their tether and resorting to things we KNOW don't work, but when you're desperate they come out anyway.