Baby Led Parenting

[Rhubarb]

Yup. The baby is the boss and they will tell you what to do. You feed them when they cry, they'll sleep when they want, do what they want when they want to do it. If you want to experience true, pure and natural parenting then this is what you do.

No mention of the African tribes who tie crying babies to trees to discourage them from crying and giving their location away to enemy tribes. No mention of feeding on demand in Ethopia because you don't have enough milk to sustain a baby for 4 hourly feeds. No mention of carrying the baby on you at all times because there are no prams and therefore not a lot else to do. Noooooo, these third world mothers really know how to bring up baby naturally and that is the way forward!

It's all bollocks isn't it?

Bedtime now. Thanks for the opinions on here, including Aitch. If we all had the same thoughts it would be boring wouldn't it? I still think that a lot of parenting gurus and books are useless and damaging, but am willing to concede that a minority do actually try to help the parents rather than just make a quick buck. I'm still unsure about baby-led parenting and all of the claims associated with it, but don't want to start that off again at bedtime!

Rhubarb, I just don't get where you are coming from. You slate parenting books, yet think there should be one book written that encompassess all parenting techniques. You slate baby led parenting, yet the only example you give of a parenting style causing PND is that of GF. What is your point? Like many first time mums I bought a range of books, quickly realised which ones didn't feel right to me (GF as it happens) and just took bits out of the ones I liked. PND is a complex and multi factorial illness.Women who are struggling with PND may well turn to a book (liKe any other mum) in the hope it gives them an answer. For some of these women persuing a certain parenting mode may help their PND,make it worse or do nothing at all. Citing parenting books as a factor in the development of PND is just incorrect.

oops. Just realised this is all over. Good night

tiredlady, well said. You've summed up a lot of other posts very well and a lot better than I did.

By Rhubarb on Wed 07-May-08 22:57:32
Contributing factor though Tink. Along with many others. It contributed to her depression. Which is what I said parenting books can do, note only can.

Nooo tiredlady, I said the one book theory was just an idea. I now concede that some books are there to help people, but yes I could name other books I think are authoritative and which make ludicrous claims, but not tonight. Quoting GF was convienent because I remembered the Mumsnetter who was really against her.

I gave a website example of baby-led parenting that harped on about African tribes and our ancestors and nature and so on earlier in the thread.

Sorry if I'm mixing you up, I understand there are two separate methods of parenting being discussed here.

But tomorrow if you're still around, nighty night for now!

(I do think I have tried to make my points very clear, I apologise if I have failed, I don't really see how much clearer I can make them though! Happy to take on criticisms however, these are only my opinions and other people are totally allowed theirs, so long as we respect each others)

so talking about shitty parenting books...........

i remember a promise.........

been a tad busy have we?

Rhubarb on Wed 07-May-08 23:14:39
"True. But then many first time mums who experience depression turn to books for help. So are they not targeting vulnerable mums, in a way?"

Myess. In the way that manufacturers of Tixalix (sp?) are targeting people with a cough. You make a product with the view of selling it to people who might want it.

You do seem to have shifted position. In the early part of the thread you seemed to be bemoaning the fact that one way is presented as the only right one. And in the later half, you complain that there are too many books giving contradictory messages. But surely that's the only solution to the only-one-way position?

cory - all of those books say they are the only right way. There is no compromise with them. Yes there are a variety of books out there with various methods of parenting, but most do try to convince you that their way is THE only way to bring up a baby and it makes out that any other way is either cruel, or ill-informed.

So the routine-based books slag off the natural methods, and the natural methods slag off the routines. None of them seemingly have any concern for the parents, they all just want to sell their books and the way they do this is to make parents believe that their word is gospel.

I'm sure someone will now give me an example of a parenting book that encompasses all methods. But the books I'm mainly talking about are those that advocate a certain method of parenting. The Mumsnet book, for example, is made up of contributions by lots of different people and is not written by any one person. Whereas the GF books, the Miriam Stoppard books, Christopher Taylor etc, they only have one point of view and that's theirs.

Custy - you'll never let me forget it if I don't!

A lot of people react very strongly to being given absolute rules to live by. And that is why books like GF's provoke such a reaction. Either people feel they need it to maintain their sanity, or they react very negatively, as most people I know did, and fling it.

Same with the AP rules you are referring to. People who instinctively feel it's not for them react against that way of doing things. For people whose ideas it fits with, it's useful.

I just don't think that someone would blindly follow something that didn't suit them - or not for long anyway.

And actually, women generally are good at discussing and debating these things, working out their own preferences, finding their own way. These books are discussed and rubbished and praised on here all the time, it's not rigid, we're not absorbing them blindly are we, we're all trying to find a way to raise our families that works for us and makes us happy and we have all these resources, some baffling and some helpful. People find their way though don't they, usually, and when it's going a bit wrong or not working, there are lots of books - as you say, so many, they can usually find something that will work for them. That's good I think.

The only method I really object to is GF, hate it. But I have a friend who swears by it and felt it saved her sanity - so i have to concede that we're all different and it's a way that works for some people [begrudging]

Baby led though, that's what worked for me. I didn't do it in any strict sense, I didn't read a book, but the general idea of AP is what suited me and I really loved the baby phase. And I never once got chased by tigers or ambushed by enemy tribes so that was a bonus.

Good post Boco. Yes you may be right. I object to those who forcefully declare that their method is the only right one. I must admit that I have seen that in the books I've mentioned and on some of the "natural parenting" websites. Some followers also push these methods ruthlessly at other mothers. I wish they were a bit more responsible with their advertising, because not all mums are confident, outspoken people.

To my mind it's the vulnerable, perhaps already depressed mums, that take these books and gurus too literally, and they can be made to feel like failures when those methods don't work for them.

I do think the market is saturated with parenting books atm. As you say, on one level they may be useful, I am willing to concede that, but on another level they give out conflicting and confusing messages.

Parenting is a hard business and it can break up relationships, drive people to depression and the brink of despair. I'm not saying all these books are to blame, but rather what they imply is that if things go wrong, it is the fault of the parents. That you are not doing it right somehow.

With all of these various media influences on parenting methods, are we in fact, losing the ability to truly follow our own instincts?

I fell into AP without reading any books because it feels right to me. My boy never sleeps on his own. He naps in my arms and sleeps on my lap until we're all ready to go to bed together. No purees, no bedtimes/naptimes, no prams, no cots, no bottles. I had him because I wanted him. I want to look after him all the time, not watch him in a separate room through some bizarre electronic device, while I live life vicariously through the tv set. It's such a small but important part of my child's life and I want him secure in the knowledge that he is loved, wanted and cared for 24/7 no matter what. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes I lose my temper but over all I couldn't do anything different if I tried.

Of course people should be free to do whatever feels best for them. I just can't understand how hauling yourself out of bed, heating up formula and going off to a separate room to feed your babe can be easier or preferable to just rolling over and putting them to the breast. How is struggling to do the housework with a fractious child in a bouncy chair or swing trying to attract your attention easier than doing it with them snoozing or watching in a sling ? How is heaving a huge unwieldy buggy on and off the bus or in and out of shops easier than babywearing ? I don't understand why the natural options aren't mentioned more by health professionals when you are pregnant. I wasted loads of money on completely unused "baby" stuff.

For the record I think that the modern way we treat our children - separating them from us to the point where they are like a separate species, who only get to interact with their peers, and treating them as an impediment to us carrying on with our "previous lives" - is responsible for the issues we have with them as teenagers in our society. IMO current parenting methods such as Gina Ford et al are crazier than a sackload of assholes.

"It's not natural to put plastic padded bags on their bottoms to catch their poo either but we do it." - try elimination communication !

If a book existed that contained all the answers
there would be no need for Mumsnet.
And actually there would be no need for parents either.
Just outsource child rearing to Vietnam, give them the manual and be done with it.

Isn't that exactly the fun and the challenge of parenting - that you have to educate yourself
using books, RL advice, the interweb while honing your own instincts at the same time.

Have faith in people, Rhubarb.
Even those who suffer from PND and sleep-deprivation will
very quickly discard advice that goes against their beliefs.

Ah but DaddyJ, I just don't like to see the way parents are constantly slated for not caring for their children well enough or to our high standards.

snippety - . But there are those who cannot breastfeed for whatever reason, and those who give up early on because they want to be able to go out and live a little - like I did. We shouldn't make them feel guilty for wanting something else should we?

Gotta go to work now.

amen, daddyj. this whole thing operates on the assumption that parents are a bit brainless. if i feel a book slates my haphazard style of parenting, i put the book down. because clearly it's a load of rubbish. and if i were post-natally depressed i imagine i'd have bigger fish to fry that whether or not Myleene Klass thought i was doing okay as a mother. i might just as easily read Virginia Woolf and fill my pockets with stones...

have scanned and not fully digested this monstrous thread

but no book can tell you everything surely?

dd1 is a completely different animal to dd2

I got GF when dd1 was about 4 months old (I was on maternity leave and needed a Project) and the bits of the book I picked worked well with her, tired after 2 hours or so, feed more in the day etc

with dd2 I lobbed it at the wall

I loved doing purees so didn't do BLW but if others wish to, fine and dandy

"Natural parenting is often baby-led parenting, with no thoughts on the welfare of the parents"

See I actually disagree with this. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing, but I found BLP to make life much easier for ME.

No need to worry about lugging baby crap around, no need to worry about when baby would be sleeping/feeding just went with whatever was happening that day.

Rhubarb - why don't you write a book? Not being sarcastic here but if you truly believe that there is a market then perhaps you should move into it?

I freely admit I didn't suffer anything even close to PND - I was lucky enough to have an easy time of it, and I do attribute a lot of that to the fact that I simply didn't try to force my baby into something "unnatural".

Can I ask a question of you Brits? Do you HAVE to have a HV intruding into your life here? Is there some law that if you have a baby you have to have someone come around? We do have the option in Australia but when they called me I told them that I was fine and didn't need any help so that was that. I don't like the idea of having TO have a HV around.

Snippety - I love it!

DaddyJ - I'm glad someone is giving me credit

Morloth - again, love it! I agree, although I've done everything for her (would I want to be seperated from my mum if I thought she was never coming back?) it's been so much easier on me.

I still want examples of AP/ BLP "gurus" who are selling books to vulnerable parents (I'd love a book on it!) without citing obscure foreign blogs. As Aitch said Gill Rapley is the worst example you could have used.

Rhubarb, who is slating parents? Let's give those meanies hell!

Seriously, I don't think there is any real slating going on but
it's one's own attitude that makes all the difference.

Take snippety's last post.

I could be offended by the lecturing-hectoring tone.
I could be annoyed/bored at the fundamentalist suggestion that AP is the natural, right way.
(Which btw demonstrates that Rhubarb's OP is certainly valid)
I could take umbrage at the uncompromising language and the hardcore hippie stance.

Instead I am simply grateful for valuable insights into a completely different parenting style.
I just strip her post of all the perceived 'slating' and what I am left with are two real gold nuggets:
Elimination communication and slings.
Both concepts strike me as extremely interesting but I have only learnt about them from AP-types on MN.

Yes, it can be grating but no-nonsense, straight advice from 'gurus', MNers or RL folk is much more useful
than everyone pussyfooting around each other for fear of causing offence.

Well hey ho

Snippety's post really does illustrate the problem with all the AP type advice. The way it plays on the ever presnet guilt in mothers. Those who do not do AP are damaging their babies in some way as it is the 'natural' and 'instinctive' way to parent.

What so many 'natural' mothers fail to realise (and by natural mothers I mean those who say I just did what came naturally) fail to realise is that for some of us NONE OF IT CAME NATURALLY.

If I had done what came naturally when I had ds I'd have left him under a bush somewhere and never come back,. I used what was left of my reasoning skills to tell myself that this was not what I should do but it most definitely was what I WANTED to do.

I agree with rhubarb. Because I couldn't work out what to do naturally and believe me I tried and then in desperation I started reading a lot of books, among them

GF
Sears
The happiest baby on the block (Karp)
So many different baby sleep boooks I can't remember them all
The continum concept
the aware babay
Why love matters

Without fail dh would groan and try and hide the books when I read any of them. Each of them would throw me in a pit of despair that I wasn't doing it right but tbh the Sears and CC ones were the worst as not only was I obviously doing it wrong but doing my child a great deal of damage in the process.

Even being told to follow my instinct was no good as I seeemed to have none where ds was concerned no matter how hard I tried.

I just never knew what ds was trying to communicate. His cries were a mystery to me until he started being able to communicate with words and more obvious body language.

I personally think reading those books did me a lot of harm but I also know that that is probably because of who I am. For others they might prove useful.

I think what I needed was a lot of reassurance that most people muddle through and that a lot of people find it very hard to cope with their first baby along with some serious psychiatric help . I think I also needed to know that it didn't have to be perfect at all, in fact even 'good enough' is pretty difficult to achieve.

In the end I got through it but for me the books were a real two edged sword. Each one would promise that if I followed their technique I'd have a wonderfully happy baby. The more routine based ones would promise me more control, the AP one would promise me a happy baby/child with no psychological issues.

Of course because I couldn't practice any of these techniques perfectly (who can) I was indeed a bad mother.

The problem with the AP ones was that I took from them that not only was I a bad mother (something I already knew) for not following that method but that my baby would suffer long term damage because of it.

The more routine based ones just left me frustrated because they didn't really work so I was left feeling I'd done something wrong and that ds just didn't fit the mould. I didn't think he'd be damaged if I couldn't get him into a routine, just that I'd be really unhappy.

Of course those who cannot breastfeed should not be made to feel guilty. And I have nothing but sympathy for those who have to return to work against their will for financial reasons. I realise I'm really fortunate to have a supportive OH and to be able to stay at home and parent as I see fit.

I just feel, from my experience as a new mum, that there is NO support for those who wish to do thing the natural way. None. no advice from HV or GP that I was willing to follow - and they undermined my intent to long term breastfeed at every turn. All the marketing is aimed at mainstream methods and I felt very insecure about my decisions for a long time.

I think our society's attitude to women & children is deplorable. We're expected to want to continue to look and behave as though we're 18 whether we have family or not. I can't imagine wanting to continue with my pre-baby life. If that was the case I would not have chosen to have a baby.

Anyhoo - this hardcore hippy has to go and was the hummus out of her BLW child's hair

I'm not sure if the last post about breastfeeding is aimed at me but I did breastfeed ds for 2 years and I also carried him around a lot in a sling. I however also used buggies and he spent periods of time in a cot in another room when I could no longer bear him crying and moving and snuffling in my bed.

I also went back to work when ds was a year old because I wanted to. I'm not sure if our 'financial' reasons would qualify for you because obviously these things are often subjective.

We could afford to eat and have the basics with ony dh at work but we couldn't afford to move out of our very small flat with no garden. So for me we needed the money, for others they might decide I was being selfish and that ds needed me at home more than we needed to buy somewhere with more space.

I'm not really sure if I did AP or routines or what really - as I say I just muddled along somehow.

I do agree that there is very little advice from HV about the 'natural' way of raising babies or whatever you want to call it and I can see who infuriating it might be but really if you are starting from a position of confidence and knowing what you want for your child then the HVs will be irrelevant.

The original OP just stuck a chord with me as I suppose what I really needed was to know that some of us don't feel that 'lovely bonding feeling' from day one and that we really struggle to connect with our babies.

Help with that would have been nice but 100% AP was not the way to do that for me. I'd have resented it too much. This may make me not a very nice person and a second class motheer who shouldn't have had children but the fact remains that I'm the mother ds has and he's going to have to be content with that.

Hello. I haven't read all the posts on this thread as tere seems to be loads and I have only just found it. However, my opinion, is the hardest thing about parenting, is everybody slating your own personal method. I mean, one way may work for you, but if baby led parenting works for somebody else, why do you feel the need to slag it off? I personally, feed my DD when she is hungry, put her to bed when she is tired etc but I have never felt like I was doing any particular method of parenting. I don't always agree with what others do, but I will always keep my mouth shut because its THEIR choice about what THEY want to do with THEIR baby. I get so fed up of people sticking their nose in with what I am doing with my DD. I just do what I feel is right at the time and what I feel is best for her. There is no need to critise what other people choose, unless they are harming their child.

Anyway, thats just my opinion

Sooo, my take on AP and how it is a false god is as follows.

If AP is the natural thing to do and children will suffer emotional damage if a parent doesn't follow AP methods, does this mean that one od each set of twins and and two out of three triplets are doomed to be emotionally scarred ?

The only person I knew who was heavily into AP also put their child into the local Steiner school when they reached school age.

Enough said really.