I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

I think the thing about routine is - it “works” for you but doesn’t work for your daughter.
start small, OP.

I suspect the comment they're referring to is the (now deleted) one which referenced a situation where someone removed all furniture/belongings, excluding bed, from their child's bedroom and locked them in for 24 hours, only allowing them to come out for food or toilet. That goes way beyond 'sending a child to their room' IMO and should be considered abusive.

Yes, Psychology UK had space recently. The wait is still long but not as long and you do it via the NHS so it still ‘counts’

Oh yes, you said that, I read it and it didn’t go in!

Ah okay, that all makes sense. Wonder why kids can have it but not teenagers and adults. I won’t buy online just in case it’s not what it says it is!

It’s so hard - I’m a Specialist Teacher and I do and would believe you if you came to one of our schools. The first thing we would do is refer you to Early Help to request a respite package. You all need a better quality of life, and respite would give you some hours each week as a breathing space. Next is to look at a program called ‘zones of regulation’ - they offer online parent training - https://zonesofregulation.com it helps hugely to support children’s regulation. Ask if they run it as an intervention at school, or if not they offer Elsa - https://www.elsa-support.co.uk/what-is-elsa-intervention/
Your daughter’s behaviour is reflecting that she is very dysregulated so we would need to prioritise regulation and teaching her strategies to support regulation. Unfortunately typical parenting does not work on children with neurodiversities and so we have to try another way. In our borough they have parent support through Mencap (you do not need a diagnosis) and also through CAMHS - both groups supported by other parents who can share knowledge and also those which are run by professionals - do google in your area because there will be some help.
When we are thinking about ‘speaking kindly’ the child has to first understand what does kind mean/what does unkind mean, then differentiate between kind & unkind words, then understand that kind/unkind words impact on others, and then understand how they impact. It’s a lot if your theory of mind (ability to understand that others think differently from you) is something you struggle with.
I might leave that as it’s a lot to understand at 5 and focus on no hitting - but instead re-frame it as - in the ‘red’ zone (anger & loss of control) I need to.. (punch a pillow, go to my safe space, use my boxing pad) so we are offering an option of what you can do when you are angry. Because it’s ok to be angry, but not ok to hit when angry. I hope this helps - please feel free to ask any other questions xx

You have an absolute duty to protect your 3 year old, no matter what. She is totally innocent in this shit show.

@TreeOfLives
I am so sorry to read about your childhood but there are two innocent children here and OP needs to do her best for both of them, difficult though that is.

They are at crisis point now but there are lots of things that will hopefully improve the situation a lot without splitting up the family. Obviously the 3 year old needs to be protected in the meantime.

My adhd godson has melatonin gummies from Amazon at his paediatrician’s suggestion.

Has anyone actually ever had any help from these people? I self referred on instructions from the GP as they couldn't possibly help me, called 6 times and begged for help and they never returned my calls or referral.

I PROMISE you, it DOES get easier, the older they get.

Four year waiting list for what?
id say it’s a priority to get you child diagnosed as you aren’t coping. Push hard! In the meantime, do a ton of research on how to parent a child with adhd and autism as that is what you said you suspect. There will be methods, coping skills and ideas you can implement.
things don’t have to stay this way. In reality, there’s always SOMETHING you can do. If you want change, it looks like for now, you’ll have to be the one making change as you can’t get medical help. So maybe research is the first step to you making your own changes and helping yourself.
but yes, you have to find a way to keep BOTH your children safe. So that means keeping the 3 year old unhurt, but also helping the 5 year old as you suspect that they aren’t capable of managing their feelings like a neuro typical child, and that’s not their fault, they also need you and need your help!

If she is ND, she is not intentionally being bad. It's important to understand that. It's why punishments won't work. It will just feel like you hate her.
Her brain is going haywire, but she doesn't understand it and hasn't yet worked out how to ease it. All her behaviour is that frustration coming out. You need to help her learn how to self-regulate, how to unwind, how to communicate that frustration in healthier ways.

A big part of this involves her environment. There is too much going on for her. And by the end of the day her brain is so overstimulated she can't switch off to sleep which only makes things so much worse because she must be so exhausted. Sticking to a routine is important because changes or surprises set off anxiety which then causes her to react. Like with the ice-cream. You see it as treating them to something nice, but to her it was something she wasn't ready to deal with in that moment. Hence her throwing it away. But then when she was ready to deal with it she was not allowed one. So she lashed out. She doesn't understand her reaction any more than you do, but it's quite typical for unregulated ND children. It's why so many of them eat the same foods/wear the same clothes/travel the same routes/play with the same toys/watch the same shows every time. That routine, familiarity, and sense of control is important.

It's not easy parenting ND children when most of the parenting advice you get is aimed at NT children. You will be judged for parenting a ND child as a ND child because a lot of it is the complete opposite to what is seen as "good" parenting. If watching the TV soothes her, let her watch the TV. If she doesn't want to sleep at night, don't fight her. Let her settle in her own time. When the stress of bedtime is taken away from her, it will becomes easier.

If you Google Right to Choose you can get a private assessment with certain providers funded by the NHS. That would speed up the assessment.
I would also read up on declarative language. I would praise her for everything. If she’s played kindly with her sister for 5 minutes tell her how lovely it is and how pleased you are. If she thank you praise her. Puts her coat on first time you ask praise her.
Ignore bad behaviour as much as you can, there is no point asking her why, she won’t really know why.
There is no evidence that sugar causes behaviour issues so I really wouldn’t worry about the odd treat personally.
Contact MENCAP and see if they have parenting support locally as you’re on the waiting list for Autism/ADHD assessment. They can be very, very helpful and supportive.
I would give her lots of warning of what the plans are for the day and the week, it may make her feel safer and calmer.
I would ask school to do the same and tell them you strongly suspect she’s masking. She may find ear defenders help when it’s assembly it play time. She may need movement breaks so she can burn off some energy to break up the lesson having to sit and concentrate for ages. She may find having fidget toys on her desk help to calm her. You can also get stretchy bands to go around the chair legs so she can push her feet against them.
Ask the GP to trial melatonin or refer her to Paed’s urgently for them to trial it. Keep going back every few weeks saying she’s still not sleeping, the whole family are suffering, you don’t feel safe driving etc etc etc. Beg for help re the sleep especially. If you and she are more rested in my experience it helps enormously. Melatonin was like magic for my Autistic child.

I have a law degree yes and my current position allows me to work with a huge range of people, particularly vulnerable people, who need assistance with a huge range of things- a job I love and take great pride in.

I’m not saying it’s easy to access this kind of help, it’s not, I’m not saying there’s hundreds of carer’s waiting to knock on your door to help- there isn’t.

BUT there is support available for those who need it, and at the point you truly have had enough, you cannot cope anymore with your child, then there are absolutely avenues worth exploring to try and access that support.

There isn’t a law that says anyone will be granted it, never said there was, but these things are in place to help and it IS a battle to get them, not everybody can, but it’s absolutely worth a try.

There is also the potential to reach our to local authority who can assist in providing some care. Again, all comes with it’s own rules and hoops to jump through, but it’s not impossible and when you are truly genuinely done- anything is worth a try.

Thankfully neither me nor any of my colleagues follow the same attitude as this when we are helping and assisting people day in and day out in this fight.

I’m also not saying that respite care or local authority care is a perfect fix because it’s absolutely not, even for those who manage to get it, help for an hour a day isn’t a magic cure for all issues, but it at least allows a tiny bit of breathing space.

It probably depends on where you live but I know they are stretched: same with family support and other less intrusive, more supportive services. I know where I used to live they were primarily working with families who were here after being granted asylum, mostly from Syria.

Then you will have ‘chaotic’ families (not a kind term sorry but you know what I mean) and families with a parent in prison, families with drug or alcohol abuse and these often go hand in hand with other problems.

None of us can in effect say ‘parenting is so tough, take my child away for a bit.’ I’m not saying this is the OPs position but it just isn’t going to happen!

Hi OP, I feel what you’ve written!
I have an autistic DS (6) who can be really impulsive, pushes, scratches and hits his younger sister and me. It is SO so hard.
No wonder you feel as you do, I imagine you are totally physically and mentally exhausted.
For what it’s worth I don’t think the typical parenting techniques of rewarding, punishing, naughty step, sticker charts work for neurodivergent kids… or at least they don’t for mine!
What has helped me is finding particular ‘voices’ which I find supportive and helpful. I have no time to read so I listen to them on YouTube. For me it’s ‘Dr Becky’ in particular and how she works with ‘deeply feeling’ kids, which a lot of autistic/adhd kids are…
I also listened to a podcast in which the speaker was talking about waiting until her child has a “calm body” and “calm mind” until they start something, which I’ve taken on board.
I also talk to him a lot about expectations and boundaries and try to be consistent. So if he gets frustrated when he is playing a game and pushes his sister, that shows he is “not ready” to play that game and I need to take it away to keep him and his sister safe. I find this much better to frame it like this rather than using punishments, because that then adds feelings like shame into the mix (which makes the behaviour worse). It’s not perfect by any means and some days are fucking awful, but I feel more confident in my approach and much more connected to him.
Also, with respect I don’t think parents of neurotypical kids get that all the usual stuff doesn’t work with some kids and so for me it’s enormously helpful to have some friends who also have neurodivergent kids and really GET IT. Not that you probably have the energy to do this, but if you can connect, it really does help. Actually the SEN board on here has been great for me - lovely people with fantastic advice who have lived it!
Good luck

I'm so sorry you are going through this. It sounds exhausting. I have not read all, but do you have any extended family or friends. This is what happens when we are left alone with highly demanding children and no support. So difficult.
Dilysthemilk seems very helpful.
Can you praise the good stuff? ( short term idea)

I have to smile a bit wryly that years of underfunding, unemployment, erosion of public services, crime, addiction and misery is my ‘bad attitude’ but sure.

You’re not saying it is easy - but you are, actually. What you’re saying is that if the OP makes enough noise she’ll get respite care. That might be true literally years down the line after months of misery but it isn’t helpful now, and it probably won’t be helpful then either!

i had a lot of pda behaviour as a kid and sticker charts were a nightmare for me. i just wanted to make my own decisions and have autonomy over my world and reward charts feel like the complete opposite of that to some ND kids.
i agree with PPs that your DD is massively overstimulated and trying to control her environment the only way she sees she can

also, sticker charts are pointless for a child like this in my experience. I would give her very specific praise multiple times a day though. Such as “thank you for putting your coat on as soon as I asked” or “well done for playing nicely with your sister” even if it’s only been a few minutes” or “thank you for using your knife and fork”. It takes time for this to make any difference but it has definitely helped long term for us.

Could you take photos/ film. Go to the GP with partner or advocate and demand help.

@icann It sounds horrendous and completely shocking.
There surely has to be something very wrong with the 5 yr old to be this aggressive and unpleasant to others.

The violence, spitting and swearing - Is she like this without her younger sister there?

She sounds unhappy and a ''hard to love'' child due to her behaviour.

This in turn will become a self fulfilling thing- she becomes more unlovable, people back off, and the worse the behaviours get.

Was she aggressive before the sibling was born?

Absolutely agree with this, sadly. What a shit state of affairs!!

You need to bin the junk food - all of it - this is a kid that is reacting badly to sugar - some brains are more prone to inflammation from sugar and this sounds like a classic case of that. When you have removed all sugar and crisps and fizzy drinks from her diet for 2 weeks then come back on here and tell us the impact.

Get her a dark den and a tablet (they are not evil)

Have you actually tried shouting at her? So that's she's actually afraid of consequences? Rather than reward charts and taking away toys?