I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

TURN THE TV OFF!!!

Literally so so obvious, Why's it on all the time at home? It's extra stimulation that so unnecessary, try some quiet audio books or calm music. Yes some ND kids finds screen time helps but a lot do not. And most of the most up to date research says its definitely not helpful.

My son goes batty if it's on any longer than 20 minutes, it honestly changes his behaviour for the rest of the day. Cannot imagine what he'd be like if it was on all the time. When it is on we watch very low stimulation stuff, no fast cartoons. The Julia Donaldson stuff is good or older shows, like old postman pat.

I'm shocked at the idea any 3yr old has programmes they need to watch. If you must then do that when the 5yo is at school.

Could she be jealous of your 3 year old? I have banned most things on my 5 year olds iPad and kindle, all she has is educational games and bbc player. None of this YouTube rubbish and she is much better and she hasn't complained either. Food is a constant battle with my 5 year old, fortunately she does love fruit and some vegetables so try to offer those before we go to junk.

Hi OP, do you lose your temper with her? Like when she throws her ice cream at you and hurts her sister? I don’t want to sound insufferable but if it was one of my children this would make me so mad I would of truly lost my temper, they would of been in their room for the rest of the day & I would have shouted. I know that isn’t going to be approved of here and probably isn’t stellar parenting advice but doesn’t it make you so angry?

I’m just wondering if maybe you’re so exhausted by the behaviour you respond by complying rather than ‘what the fuck are you doing?!’

Ip I'm autistic and this sounds a lot like me as a child before my parents realised. Once they did, things got much better because they put good things in place for me. The sleep was the first thing they tackled. I needed background noise, a fan or aircon is what they used. Now days you could have a noise machine or even just an app on aphone to play white or brown noise. Once I was less tired, they paid attention to what calmed me.

Going out every day would be way too overwhelming for me (still would as a grown up!) They also noticed that I was much better if left alone to play, rather then being played with - I still remember how angry I would feel if they played with me 'incorrectly'. 'Playing' silently alongside me was my ideal, still is. So both colouring newr each other but not talking or interacting. Change and transitions were also hard, so I imagine that is why your dd acts up if the channel on the TV is changed.

You mentioned noise sensitivity, what have you done for her on that? Have you tried flares or noise cancelling headphones or even jsut ear protectors?

I also loved spinning and bouncy balls so they got me a basket ball and kids poi, I played happily for hours with both.

Anyway, perhaps one or two of these might be useful for you to try.

Shouting is just saying the same thing louder. All you're doing is conditioning then to ignore you when talking at a normal volume.
Shouting is best left for rare occasions when there's a need to shock them into action- eg. Don't touch the Fire!

Not in my experience, they just get bigger and hurt you more. No one will help and everyone judges the meltdowns as they aren't a 'little kid' anymore.

I know this negativity isn't helping the OP but I also feel like the OP some days and then others I cope just fine, I am calm and can take the punches, kicks and biting. Where is the support? I am screaming into the void most of the time.

@OneFastDuck my children watch lots of tv, they don’t behave like this. The tv isn’t causing all these problems. Stop blaming op.

I've read them all. I've been in asda.

So she is on the waiting list for ADHD and autism assessment. I'm going to phone the gp Monday morning and ask for the right to choose and about something to help her sleep

My husband is amazing. He is my rock and he is so good with the girls. I've spoken to the grandparents and there going to have little one tomorrow so me and dad can spend some one on one time with the oldest. The 3 year old is going to nursery from September for 2 full days and a half. So I'm hoping to have some me time.

I'm exhausted. And i just don't want to do this. Its bed time and i feel sick. I'm so scared nursery will see the marks she's left on her and report us. I protect her as much as I can. But she's so quick.

I've restrained my 5 year old before and will continue to do so but she's so strong. She's big for her age. Not fat. Tall and solid. If this continues I'm screwed.

I just don't want to be here right now. I'm failing no matter what I do

@OneFastDuck or don’t throw a fucking ice cream at me and hurt your sister because it didn’t look right?

I don’t know what to suggest and so feel for you and feel so sad for the little one, who is suffering too. Without stating the flipping obvious you need professional help which you almost certainly know already. How about writing down how she is and then make an appointment with your GP alone, without the children and show the GP what you have written, so you can really get across how bad her behaviour is and how it affects the whole family. You need help and soon! Hand hold from me, your story brought tears to my eyes. You are trying so hard and sound such a caring mum.

Your daughter sounds quite similar to my cousin who has PDA along with autism (Pathological demand avoidance).

Keeping demands to an absolute minimum seem to help with him. For example, they were advised to scrap the bedtime routine which just resulted in meltdowns and instead have a gradual 'calm down' on an evening and let him fall asleep without commenting on it. Having the food he's allowed to eat in reach and letting him choose when/what to eat as much as possible. And giving him plenty of time to do things like getting dressed and brushing his teeth.

It's difficult, for him just as much as his parents and siblings. But he's a teen now and is learning his own ways to cope with the demands of life.

I'm sorry things are hard for your family OP. All you can do is to keep trying your best and fight tooth and nail for the support your child needs. Don't accept the doctor refusing to help, keep going back and demanding someone takes your concerns seriously. You shouldn't have to, but from my experience, it's sometimes the only way.

This is sport on, but I’d say for intelligent children who think critically, not just for ND kids. To be honest, most of my family was probably undiagnosed ND - we are all free thinkers / quirky / all the other descriptors giving before the term HF autism came along, we have always patented based on this understanding. Lots of academics and other typical jobs for bright misfits in my family. It meant my HFA son was fine at home, but really struggled with being patronised by his teacher when he started school. He was always battling against the arbitrariness of the system. Now he is at college with 12x9s at GCSE to his name and is treated as an adult. It’s like the world is finally catching up with him because he looks old enough to be treated as an autonomous human being.

I'm so sorry, OP. This sounds so difficult and draining and I am not surprised you feel like you can't do it any more.

I echo those who have suggested PDA. What is PDA? – PDA Society Does this sound like your daughter?

If so, things like reward charts and punishments do not work. They are stressful and put pressure on and just make life more difficult.

She sounds exhausted too, so I think the first thing you need to tackle is sleep. Can you talk to your GP about melatonin, or other options? Would she cope with lavender spray on her pillow (some children are very sensitive to smell, so this might not work). Maybe she feels rejected by you since your DH takes over when he gets home (and lord knows you need that break), so that doesn't help. Perhaps you could do one night with your 3-year-old and one night with her?

Your idea of each parent taking one child out on a Saturday then swapping for Sunday sounds good. You'll get a sort-of break with the 3-year-old, and then a day with her so she feels important to both of you.

It's so hard I know. My 12-year-old is autistic and we suspect a PDA profile. We've found reducing demands has helped a lot. She used to hurt us and her little sisters often; now it's much less frequent.

There are also some really good support groups on Facebook, etc, where you can get non-judgemental advice and care.

I have shouted yes. And it's not my proudest moment but when your youngest is sobbing because she's been bitten and she's in pain I did react. Usually I don't. It doesn't work. It makes her worse.

The tv is on. Yes. I will turn it off more but you know again probably defending my 3 year old here but when she's lost her day out I feel a bit horrid saying no you can't watch bluey as well as all you've lost.

Her diet? She doesn't have fizzy drinks. She occasionally has chocolate. And we have a multi pack of crisps in for both the kids. And as its summer we have some rocket lollies in the freezer. I home cook 99 percent of the time. Occasionally it's a freezer meal when like today I'm pushed to the edge.

If only it were that easy. Waiting list for assessment here is 6 years, CAMHS is massively under-resourced.

@OneFastDuck I said this unthread but I have severe ADHD and mine shows itself in shutting down and I come across as very rude. No amount of shouting or people being cross or telling me I was being rude or punishment ever stopped it. Because it wasn’t ‘naughty’ behaviour, it’s part of me. It took understanding, support and self forgiveness for me to be able to handle it. I still want to do it but now I’m an adult I recognise it and am able to take steps to minimise it.

It may not be the same thing, but if it’s from neurodivergence then shouting won’t change it. It takes other support to get to the crux of why it’s happening and how to manage it.

I also didn’t have fizzy drinks and sweets and loads of TV as a kid.

If she’s ND she won’t understand consequences - there’s a disconnect between actions and their consequences so she won’t understand why she’s being shouted at. Same for taking away the toys - doesn’t mean anything. She’ll just think OP hates her.

Also, it sounds like there’s no structure. What are the consequences or punishments? Eg she threw sisters ice cream, and you’re complaining about that. But what did you do? Taking her home wasn’t a punishment, it was a coping mechanism for you. Does she know the rules of the house and what the consequences are? Without that you’re making life hard for her and for you!
maybe start with that! Yes, dumb it down and be super super clear.

do you tell her clearly how you’d like her to behave before leaving the door?
Not “I’d like nice behaviour” explain what nice behaviour is “I’d like you to play nicely and respectfully in the park. No hitting or shouting and you must listen to mummy! If not, [put punishment here]” and follow through. Sometimes one warning is appropriate like “stop shouting. Mummy told you [whatever your rules were] and right now you aren’t listening. So this is your warning, if you don’t stop and behave yourself [punishment]” and yes, the first few times she will absolutely push your buttons and try her hardest so you have to stick to it.

the Way you described the sticker chart, it will NEVER work. You give stickers for not hitting, that’s very confusing, because then how is that measured? It’s much easier to understand hitting is unacceptable and gets a punishment. Sticker charts work with rewarding positive behaviour. Saying please and thank you, sharing with sister, talking or playing nicely with sister etc.
also, maybe the days out are too much? She’s over stimulated so shes reacting to that?

You are right and even when a package is agreed, there just arent the carers available/willing to do that role. Who wants to do the job OP is doing? Its not their child. There are plenty of other children who need respite or who are looked after without these behaviours so they are going to take those children, not children like the OPs.

OK, firstly I totally understand that this is hard , really really hard. Cut yourself some slack. But you can’t walk away.

If she is ND, and it sounds as tho she is, then standard parenting advice re rewards and sanctions will not work, because to an extent the behaviour is out of her control at this stage. (Control will come as she matures).

My daughter was the same and now at 11 is diagnosed with ADHD, autism, sensory processing disorder and PDA. I won’t lie, it has been extremely tough. But the moment we read extensively about parenting an ND child, things changed. So no sanctions or rewards. Connected consequences - so leaving from day out but calmly - come on we are going home, this isn’t working for you atm. Removing thrown food but not refusing to provide (simple) food half an hour later. Many ND children cannot recognise hunger or thirst. Keep a diary to look for triggers - noises, movements, smells, touch, fabrics etc. Our DD could not articulate the impact these were having and it would manifest in her behaviour. Now at 11, she can, and we work with this - so no themes parks or fun fairs, but quiet beaches and countryside. No cinema or theatre, (too noisy) she still doesn’t really watch tv. Books are good but we would accept that she won’t cuddle and look at pictures, she will hang upside down, do roly polys etc.

She can’t manage places with strong smells and any sort of eating out is challenging. Picnics are good. She wears very specific clothes and generally has the several of the same things.

Meltdowns - acknowledge she is struggling and then ignore if low level. If really kicking off, take to room and stay inside with her so she can’t trash the house. She can trash her room. If violent - time in or not violent restraint. Not cross - ‘it’s ok, I’ve got you, I’m here, we’ll get through this.’ Etc.

lots of ways to burn energy in her room - yoga swing chair, ours has a small inside trampoline and a doorway swing/pull up bar, and a birthing ball! she can’t manage clubs or team sports but she does boulder at a very calm, mainly adult attendees, bouldering club.

My DD masked in school and was v quiet and wouldn’t talk about it, meltdown as soon as she left. We did home ed her for 18 months from Y4-6 because it was just too traumatic for her, but she is back now and starting comp in September with SEN plan and reasonable adjustments. But it has been a huge fight.

Oh And she is now prescribed melatonin for sleep which has really helped, she is asleep but 11 now, not 2. And calmer in the evenings.

it is really hard and it still is, our lives have changed a lot. On the upside, we could stop soft play and trampoline parks (definite no go). We do a lot of tag team parenting with our other child so he doesn’t miss out. Different weekends away with one or other parent so they both get 1-1 parent time and DS gets a break!

She is amazing now, and is largely able to articulate her feelings. She is sometimes frighteningly mature, and at other times she is 3 again, but reflection is beginning to happen. She has one friend. She is a joy most of the time, and meltdowns are generally brief because we all understand how to manage.

i hope that some of this ramble helps. Take care OP.

Have a look at ABA therapy and a token economy system. It works if applied consistently. It's tough but she is communicating something to you in her behavior. Seek help from school, social services etc... , insist they listen! Sending a hand hold, it's tough xxx

Take every bit of sugar out of her diet OP. And things like crisps, lollies and anything you don’t cook yourself, research the additives and see whether they’re known for having a behavioural effect.

With respect, please don’t do this! Neurodivergent kids who often struggle more with emotional regulation and frustration tolerance need even more regulated caregivers! It’s so hard and so important for us to try to regulate our emotions and use our words (and try not to shout) with these kids, so we are modelling this for them. I’m not saying it is easy to do!!

Do you have a Neurodiverse child??? Please don’t do this OP!