I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

You need melatonin for the sleep. You won’t get it from the GP. We get it from the paediatrician, however you can buy it online. It’s a game changer.

If she is neurodivergent then she’ll be masking at school which is why they won’t see her behaviour, then exploding at home. Read up on the coke bottle effect. Also, neurodiverse kids don’t make as much melatonin, so they aren’t tired.

Mine had no interest in sticker charts either, they aren’t incentive driven. Read the Explosive Child and 123 Magic. And pathological demand avoidance.

I was going to recommend the explosive child too, mine is NT but a handful and we found it really helpful in identifying triggers that we hadn’t noticed before.

This sounds way more complicated than a lack of discipline tbh. It sounds exhausting OP I hope you get some help come through soon.

That’s because Punishing will never work for adhd/asd and the behaviour us usually worse the higher their IQ. You need to see and reward the positives. If GP will take the 3 yo then send her there a few Saturdays and spend some quality 1-2-1 time with eldest

If you’re on FB, “PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) Families and Practitioners is a closed group that provides a lot of support and useful know how.

@icann I can hear your desperation. It sounds super hard.

I have a friend with a very similar sounding daughter. She’s about a year further on from you now. I can tell you that there were days when she really considered giving her daughter up it was that hard (she’s a lone parent and no siblings to think of)

What has helped her (but not removed every issue) has been …

the ASD diagnosis, that took a very long time to get though
recognising her daughter’s PDA profile. Removing demands and adjusting behaviour management to suit PDA
having no demand days at the weekend and start of school holidays. This has helped her daughter to reset after masking at school
picking her battles. This means accepting that her daughter can’t be like other children and adjusting her expectations. For example accepting not being able to use certain child care and finding alternatives.
occupational therapy - massive one that she pays for privately
time of year - daughter is MUCH worse in the winter

i hope this helps somewhat. It’s not your fault though.

OP this is so hard, our now 8 year old was like this at that age. The bad behaviour peaked at 6, then things got easier. I think there's a hormone surge or something. You can speak to the Autism Society that may have a branch local to you. You don't need a confirmed diagnosis to access this. Check out local psychology services and see if they have any charitable resources or offer subsidised sessions. Our daughter benefited from some art therapy. We're on the waiting list for assessment, I know it's so frustratingly slow. I also recommend 123 magic and the 'explosive child'. Hang in there, you will all come through this x

I'm so sorry. I have a 5 year old son who is autistic and has ADHD. It is so hard.

I haven't read the full thread, but based on your first few posts, here's what I would do, in this order:

• Discuss with your husband if there is any way he can work less / from home / flexibly. He can pursue this.
• If your 3 year old can attend nursery, do.
• Visit GP. Ask for EarlyHelp referral to CAMHS.
• Ask your GP to refer your child via Right to Choose for an autism and ADHD assessment. This is completely free and you should be seen within a few months. Look into which provider - Psicon, ADHD360 and Clinical Partners are options from memory. We used Clinical Partners. A diagnosis will help to open doors for support.
• Speak to school about getting an IEP sorted. Be pushy - your child needs support in school.
• Apply for DLA. If you get rejected, wait until you have more evidence and then try again. This gives you a monthly payment. We get more than £500 a month, which helps fund Clin Psych and SALT etc.
• If you can afford this, get a private SALT and Occupational Therapist assessment.
• We also take our son to see a Clinical Psychologist, as a lot of his outbursts stem from severe anxiety.
• Apply for an EHCP.
• Less important, but once you have some evidence, apply for an Access Card. If you have the queuing and +1 symbol, that makes it much easier (and cheaper) to take a child out, and may make life better for your 3 year old too.

I hope that helps. We've done all the above (within one year) except get an EHCP (but it is due to be finalised any day now). This time last year, the hitting was constant, and now, because his needs are being met, it is extremely rare. Sorry I've not read the full thread, but will try to do so later. Others who have read full thread may be able to offer more useful advice. Best of luck.

As a parent of an AUDHD Child. She sounds classically AUDHD, but with that you daily routine is far far too many demands on her and she will be burning out. Look into Naomi Fisher etc for Low Demand Parenting, it isn't letting them get away with everything but giving choice and rephrasing things to be less of a demand and more optional so they feel like they still have control (which is greatly needed). One thing the dieticians have always said is to not make food a big thing, let him eat what he eats or he will starve himself. Which he has done in the past. Happy to help privately if you need to vent and some tips. (I have 4 kids and my difficult is the eldest)

Sorry your going through such a tough phase. I have two autistic DC (7&5), the 5yo still bites and scratches most days, usually at bedtime, but the 7yo doesn't (after having been awful for it when younger), which helps me hold on to the idea thing can/will improve with the youngest.

It sounds like your DD is overwhelmed, so might be easier to change the environment, then try to get child to cope in an environment that's to much for them. Does she want / need to go out everyday? I know on paper she is very lucky to be having daily outings, but pottering around at home might actually meet her needs better.

Does she have any senses that she seems to either avoid/ get upset by or seek out? If you can work out a rough profile you can match activities to it.

The food throwing/refusal could be defiance, but could also be sensory. Try to see if there's any patterns about what she will eat, and try to make a reasonablely healthy diet out of that. (Eg. My DS will only eat dry, crunchy food, but is equally happy with crisps or carrot, as they both tick his boxes).

At 5 you might be able to get melatonin prescribed to help her sleep. You'll need your gp to refer you over to a pediatrician to get the prescription, but the benefit of you all getting some proper sleep will be worth it.

When my 5yo goes into attack mode, I just pick her up and put her straight in her room, or hold her on me knee if we're out. I say something like "I love you but we all get to be safe" then don't engage further until she's calmer. Mine usually goes through a cycle of angry then sad, so I come in and give her cuddles once she's switched. It's probably not the best way to deal with it, but if I try to engage and actively calm her down, it seems to make it last longer, and I lose my patience after a few bites.

I think half the people giving you advice here have never met an autistic child let alone tried to parent one!

Discipline will do nothing but make her worse as she fights against the demand. Join Newbold Hope on Facebook. Have a look into PDA profiles - some of the techniques for that may help?

I haven't RTFT, but couldn't leave without responding (this is my professional area of expertise). A few points to consider...

1. Please speak to school, and explain exactly how difficult it is.
2. You don't need a diagnosis to apply for DLA, I would recommend doing so.
3. Reach out to local groups for children with autism/ADHD/PDA (sounds like all 3 could be in play here). School may have contact details, if not, look online for your "local offer" information - they should list up to date info on what is available. You should hopefully find other parents who have been there and done that - these are the VERY BEST people to talk to.
4. When you have the headspace, maybe read a few books about autism/PDA for parents and/or look at courses - parenting a ND child can be very different to the way 'we' were parented.
5. Remember, it's a strength to ask for help, not a weakness.

It sounds like you've been doing a great job so far - you've just had 6 weeks with no break, you're exhausted, and can only see the difficulties coming up. It may be difficult to get your daughter to school, but you'll be able to make the most of the time you'll have with your 3 year old when she's there.

Stop taking her out. Not as a punishment (she cant help her behaviour) but because its likely too much for her. Google the coke can analogy. Make her home the only place other than school that she goes. Control the environment, calm, no noise, lots of activities supporting proprioception ( google it) . Get melatonin. We did all of this with our Autistic boy and his life changed, much happier child. Now, 3 years later hes doing really well. He slowly went out and about in little baby steps (we didnt always get it right, he threw a cookie at a mans head in starbucks once 😬) over about a year. Get help for yourself too, perhaps counslelling? Its a very strong reaction to wish away your child so I think you too need additional support. And if you have any spare money invest in an Occupational Therapist trained in Sensory Intergration. Do that even before paying privately for diagnostics, it changed our lives immeasurably.

I’ve just read through your posts OP and it screams PDA to me. You also can try magnesium supplements and melatonin to help with sleep. I would definitely research PDA coping methods and try a few techniques out, you have nothing to lose.

This is a side note, but where do you get melatonin? As I said up thread I have ADHD and horrific insomnia. I’ve heard about melatonin but dismissed it as you can’t get it over the counter and my GP just wants me to have amitriptyline which I don’t want.

Her dad is still with OP!

With my two DC (both awaiting assessments) I found that baths at bedtime got them wound up and unable to relax. They get baths at other times, only when they want, and it makes a difference.

Something I discovered almost by accident is that twinkling Christmas tree lights calmed one of them down enormously in the evening while I read a story.

I almost never leave them alone together, and although the violence towards me has died down, they are both unbelievably stubborn and often rant at me and each other and slam around the house.

Oh and both of them struggle academically, but get almost identical report cards praising good behaviour and effort.

This is a great post.

You need a different GP. Please do look up Right to Choose. You can honestly have an autism diagnosis within the year for free.
Here is a link to the one we used https://www.clinical-partners.co.uk/nhs-services/right-to-choose It requires a GP to refer.

OP I could have written this a few years ago. My youngest son was very very difficult at home but always fine at school. Whenever I asked about his behaviour they looked confused as he was super well behaved there! He would come out of school and literally explode at me - I read an article called the 'coke bottle effect' about ASD and masking at school which made perfect sense to what I was experiencing. There were times when I felt I didn't want him too - it was so hard to cope with. Of course I didn't really mean it. I couldn't get any help from school as he was fine there or the doctors as he was not bad enough to meet their thresholds. I must admit that I ordered Melatonin from the internet and it helped so much. He found it much easier to settle to sleep and it gave me some much needed rest and space. We stopped going places that he couldn't cope with and made him meltdown. This did affect my social life as it meant not meeting up with friends and their kids but it really helped him. A few years on and things are so much better. I hope things start to get better for you xx

And I’ll say again, I have first hand experience in my current job role supporting people through this process among others. The support is there. Not just respite care either, there is support there. Yes, you have to really fight for it and it’s an uphill battle, but it IS there for those who need it.

I don't have time to read all the replies, but just in case no-one else has suggested it I really strongly suggest you read The Explosive Child by Dr Ross Greene. It has been a game changer for many parents especially with the long waits for ND assessments. Sympathies for what you're dealing with.

@icann I agree with everyone saying to keep pushing for support. Call your GP, present them with a diary, photo evidence, the lot. Ask about right to choose for her assessments.

You need your DD to be seen by a Paediatrician. They may prescribe meletonin - it's not a magic bullet, trust me, but it does help lots of children with sleep, which helps other behaviours in turn.

Do you have any community support/outreach type services? If your GP won't help, go to them. I was put in touch with a "community prescriber" team who can help with referrals for therapies, groups, even form filling for things like DLA and ehcps.

Keep talking to school. Let them know she's a school refuser and that you want help. Some schools will come outside the gates to help get them in. Ask them to document ANY concerns, this will help long term.

I'm so sorry OP this all sounds really difficult. The sleep issue stood out to me. My now 10 year old has ASD and had never slept through a night in his life, and his behaviour was becoming more problematic - tantrums and meltdowns. He got prescribed melatonin and it's been absolutely transformational, he goes to sleep around 8.30, sleeps through til 7nor so and his behaviour is so much better, now he's not chronically exhausted. Might be worth speaking to Dr about or you can buy melatonin over the counterin Europe and US if you know anyone going on holiday? Or I think you can buy it online from a few UK sources

Can you refer yourself to Early Help through the council website and get some support and advice?