I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

notfineinschool.co.uk/young-people

Be so careful with what you report to SW. They can misinterpret everything and start looking to you as cause and try to take away your “parental rights to make decisions” to shut you up (but NOT take away your child).

Video - they can decide you video instead of helping upset child - bad mummy
Unsafe home - they can look around and say - you keep knives, medicines, alcohol, glass, etc within reach. Bad mummy.
-they will want to talk to your 3 yr old alone !!
-get DP to disagree- bad parents
-They might conclude that your exhaustion is due to DV or substance abuse but never tell you.
A wrong SW is not on your side, they may not want to suggest solutions that cost them money. Maybe the pressure in their “panel” meetings to be cost saving makes them view your situation as fixable with a “parenting class.”

They might decide that you “demonize” one child.

Be so careful, treat every SW meeting like a police interview. Only answer what they ask.
Be so careful. They just might be building a case against you.

GP - as good as useless, they don’t work with SW. Completely separate & don’t work together.

CAMHS- might help, but again, not always on your side. Might meet a nurse, but need to meet an MD to prescribe - nurse recommends parent classes and mainly it takes months for them to write letters & plans. They will watch your behavior while your 5 y.o. Challenges you in the meeting. Most likely whatever you do will be “wrong” .

Please be careful.

It's time to go back to GP and ask firmly for a referral for both suspected autism and ADHD. Show them the videos. Try and get back up from school that she masks hard. Do a little research into the things I and others mentioned earlier such as RSD and PDA. Might give you a bit more insight. Keep a journal of behaviour. The other thing I did that helped the morning chaos getting ready for school was to have everything lined up in order from underwear and socks. My son responded well to this as he didn't have to think about it. I also had a laminated thing on the fridge that could be wiped every day. So ticking off breakfast, teeth, wash face, get dressed etc etc. It can make them feel a little more in control when their head is chaos. Encourage her to tick it herself and do one for 3 yo too if that would help.

Your DD sounds like a more extreme version of my DD when she was 3 and 4.
Except she did hit at nursery too. But it sounds like your DD is hitting harder.
She is 6 now and diagnosed with ASD and on waiting list for ADHD diagnosis.
She has a younger sibling too.
I've found sticker charts hit and miss. But for hitting at home, one thing that worked to greatly reduce the hitting was a "Kind hands" sticker chart. It sounds soft, but you are naming it for the behaviour you want not the negative behaviour.
We divided each day into Morning, Afternoon and Evening. She helped me decorate the chart. She loves craft too.
If she didn't hit anyone in each period of time she could choose a sticker to put on the chart. If she did something extra nice like giving her sibling a toy she would get an extra sticker.
There was no complicated reward system, just putting the sticker on the chart.
It wasn't overnight, but more like one day it seemed like the hitting would never end. Then one day you look around and think oh, she's not really hitting at home any more.
We also had a high stairgate on her bedroom door. It was originally there for safety to stop her falling downstairs in the night when she was little. A tall one to stop her climbing over it.
Every time she hit someone especially the little one, we put her in her bedroom for the number of minutes her age is - so 4 minutes for a 4 year old. You might feel like leaving them for longer, but then they feel abandoned and it has a negative effect. So just keep repeating it. Lots of short time outs is more effective than one long one.
These are what helped us. I know every child is different and it might not work at all for you.
Also, you say you're not sure what to use as consequences. Have you tried "No sweet things for the rest of the day". I use that sometimes but usually more to get her to focus on finishing getting ready when she's really distracted.
It doesn't effect the sibling because they are still allowed to have it.
I also found out that my daughter really dislikes direct praise. So going overboard on praise for good behaviour doesn't work for us.
I hope you find something that works.

I think the video is for the school? Although tbh it sounds like the DC actually isn't masking particularly successfully in school.

We had some contact with social services. Although I was worried, suspicious and embarrassed, in fact all they wanted to do was refer us to Early Help, who directed us to Mencap because they had the contract for autism and advice in our area.

It wasn't useful really because DD can manage in mainstream settings, and virtually everything offered is during term time/the working day so working parents can't access it. Or is for ??? (don't want to be inappropriate) "visibly disabled" DC.

We sometimes say we need a family tshirt that says You Have No Idea How Much Effort it Takes to Seem This Normal...

A diary might be useful, however.

Regarding praise, DD can't handle direct praise. If you said "great drawing!" she'd probably rip it up.

I "let her hear" me praising her to others.

"DH, I meant to tell you DD did a really smart thing today..."

That's a good idea. My DD doesn't mind hearing the teacher telling me she's done well at something. But if I tell her "well done" directly she gets uncomfortable. The most I can get away with is saying "thank you", if she's been helpful.

Hitting is abuse.
Or you don't believe women can be abusive as they are not 6ft tall male?
Bizarre.

Hi @icann

How are things now? Has DD calmed down?

Ok and the junk food. I home cook pretty much all the time. However yes I do have crisps in and it's been warm so yes I do have ice lollies in. Again it's finding that balance. I have 2 children. I don't want to take away the simple pleasure of having an ice lolly on a hot day.

Honestly not criticizing the diet when suggesting the food diary - it can be very hard to see links.

I was keeping one for food allergies - an issue - though saw them with DD1 it was easy as she was very quite usually other's doubted me and getting to bottom of what it was was harder - was keeping diary for food allergies - and most of the food would have been consider healthy by most people or very least part of a normal diet rather than junk - and most of their diet was home cooked from basics dealing with fussy textures and random sudden dislikes.

PP mentioned keeping diary for any tiggers more generally - it's a good idea.

Noise and texture - as teen ear defenders/noise cancelling headphones, fidget devices (rings being very discrete) and still being very mindful of textures are all very important - but took time to get there and find out what worked.

I had reward charts pushed at me for DS - they were actually a huge trigger for him. I learnt very quickly he needed counted down for even regular daily tasks and TV had to be rationed and not near bedtime or before school. It took time and bad days and he was never as bad as your five year old.

Seeing a different GP is a really good idea because it does sound extreme. I hope you get soem help and things start to improve for you.

She's calmed down slightly. Doesn't want to go anywhere. Is adamant that 3 year old is having a whale of a time and is having sweets and presents and days out galore. She's just so angry. I've got her a new craft thing and was going to see if she wanted to do that but I don't know if she will. She doesn't want me near here

Am glad she has calmed down a bit.

In your situation I'd probably just make some lunch, leave it for her, open the new craft thing and leave it out in case she wants to do it, tell her you love her and you're there if she needs/wants you, and grab or book or whatever and try to relax.

Are you comparing a five year old to an adult?

Of course I beleive women can be abusive i was being as ridiculous as you
But this is a five year old child not a man or a women ,five year old,s don't have the same concept of hitting as adults do because they are five

You are being absolutely out of order LondonFox. This child isn’t a brat. She’s suffering.

Sounds like she is also extremely jealous of the well behaved younger sibling.

Parents and grandparents {and others} naturally gravitate to the easy, happy sweet natured child who is rewarding to look after and a joy to be around, and the angry child picks up on it, which hardens their loathing for the 'favourite'.

The older one will probably ''have it in'' for the three year old when the younger one comes back from her grandparents house.

Her physically hurting the younger one is absolutely not on- can there be a tall baby gate to separate them, so the three year old at least has somewhere to retreat to where she won't be hurt?

Baby gates are a nuisance, and the 5 yr old might try and climb over anyway, but worth a try? - even if you can borrow one.

There used to be a mean boy who tormented his younger sister - he picked cooking apples in season from a tree in their garden and fired them at the little girl when their mum was inside, thwacking them off her poor little back and head.

She'd naturally run inside, crying, and their mum would come out, and he'd be down the tree, looking all innocent, denying everything.

I've got her a new craft thing and was going to see if she wanted to do that but I don't know if she will. She doesn't want me near here

Mention it and let her come to you - least that what worked for DD1 and DS they had to be left to calm down - DS often outside in wooded part of garden.

MIL could never leave them alone hovering and offering endless suggestions if they looked sad - prolonged everything.

Making it easy to come to you when they had calmed just worked so much better for older two.

I'm not perfect by any shots. I probably do gravitate towards the 3 year old. You know because she isn't screaming at me or hurting me. Or all of the above. The grandparents have refused to have the 5 year old alone. There in the 70s and she broke several of the ornaments and plates there and has physically hit her grandad. I can't push them to have her alone. If they come to us which probably monthly they treat her the same. They bring toys and treats for the 2. They play with the 2. Yes they probably do have a better relationship with the 3 year old. They know her. They see her at there house often.

I've left the craft set on the table. I've set it up. It's there if she wants it. I just feel like I've wasted the day. You know my 3 year old will be loving today. She's got undivided attention and she's not going to get hurt. But like someone's said my 5 year old is going to begrudge this and it will end badly for my 3 year old. What do I do? I've bought 4 safety gates. I'll put them up to separate the 2

She might surprise you. If you end up having a calm afternoon, and she does the craft and enjoys it, you never know. It might be OK.

You're not wasting the day. You're doing what needs to be done - giving her space.

I was thinking about the sister situation, and wondered if you could talk to her grandparents and ask them to invite her out (with one of you or your DH) to spend the day together. If it comes from them it might feel special for her?

It's anectodal evidence.
In the past many children were labelled as stupid/lazy/malicious etc etc etc because people didnt recognise they may have special needs.
Last yeear I taught in a school, my form class had abour 7-8 kids that were on the pathway to diagnosis and displayed many behaviours consistent with ADD.

I go back to my very first form class 15 years ago, I had a similar amount of children in my class displaying the very same behaviours (talking about a range), I remember very well as it was a big thing to get a form class for me and I felt broken because I struggled with them so much. None of the parents were pursuing any sort of diagnosis and people just thought this was a particularly badly behaved class with 'difficult' children that need to be constantly punished for their behaviour. They sat in detentions most days, the amount of phonecalls I had to make...

If the same kids from back then were in my class now, I would have approached them very differently, and most likely they would have a diagnosis or at least people would be aware why they were 'misbehaving'. They would have support in place and although the education system is still shit for SEN kids, I dont think they would have struggled anywhere as much.

It's not a wasted day! She's calmer, she's resting.

Have just realised that wasn't very clear. I meant invite your older DD out for the day with them and one of you parents.

I will ask her grandparents and see what they think. It's a good idea. I hope she is calm..it's still 50 50 whether the youngest is staying overnight. She's very upset by the comment of being sent away and nobody loves her

I agree with this. She also needs to understand why her sister won't play with her.

She probably does understand tbh but I think it will help to verbalize it. Not in a nasty way just very factual. Then you all know where you stand and acknowledge what needs working on.