I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

Youngest is at her grandparents. I took her and dad stayed at home with oldest. 5 year old told 3 year old she was being sent away because nobody loved her and then pulled her hair. I comforted 3 year old in the car. Grandparents have made her feel better. And she might stay over tonight.

Got home. 5 year old doesn't want to go nowhere. Doesn't want to be in the house with me and dad. Told dad she wishes he was dead and that I had crashed the car and not come home. She's trashing downstairs.

There's literally no fucking point. OK she is overwhelmed and she's hurting but I don't know what to do. Her sister isn't here. Dad's locked her in the front room where she can't hurt herself. I shouldn't have to lock a 5 year old in a room. And ok it's not abuse but it feels like it. I can't move my finger. My 3 year old is broken. No I don't want my 5 year old to go but I can't help but think how easy my life would be if she wasn't here. I'm so so tired. All I've done on the drive home is cry.

Oh OP :(

I really wish people who have zero experience of neurodivergence wouldn't post on threads like this. "Advice" and opinions are unhelpful to say the least when you haven't got a clue about the subject. It creates so much noise and distracts from the help OP so clearly needs. OP, I hope you're ok this morning. Try and pick up comments from those of us who have SN kids.

I hope you're having a cup of tea or similar.

Have a drink ready for your child. Put on her favourite music. Sit with your DH in the kitchen or somewhere and just be there for when she comes down from it.

I'm so sorry. This sounds incredibly difficult.

Have you videoed any of this kind of behaviour? If not, do it now.

I do think in some cases parents will try to present ASD/ADHD as a way to absolve their badly behaved child, or for the consequences of their own lack of parenting skills - simply because they have no understanding of these conditions or their actual effects. As a disability outreach worker, l also used to see parents who would try this for no other reason than to secure disability benefits - it was usually the first thing mentioned, rather than any possible diagnostic/treatment path for the child. I think this colours peoples’ thinking when it comes to real disability. Hence some of the awful comments OP has had here in response to what comes across as an intolerable situation - not least for the child herself.

I've got a cup of tea and I'm eating my 3 year olds leftover toast. I've made 5 year old some fruit on a plate and a glass of milk ready for when she wants it. My husband is videoing it. She's just screaming and destroying the living room. There's nothing major I'm bothered about getting broken. I don't want her hurting herself. Dad tried to get in to see if she was OK and she threw a book at him so he decided to retreat and just video. He's just as helpless as I am and I wish I knew what to do

I'm so sorry you're going through this OP. Things usually improve once you know what you're dealing with. Hold onto that thought.
The usual parenting strategies don't work in many cases. Focus on what makes her calm and happy if you can and build on that.

I'm so sorry. I have been bitten and bruised too and it absolutely does feel like abuse. But it's not the child's fault and that's a huge difference.
Take it in turns with her dad today and try to make a little time for yourself, a walk, a cup of tea, a bath.

It's horrendous I know. Things are calm here now but I have ptsd or something from it all still. Terrified in case anything like switching meds is mentioned in case we go backwards. But DC is happy and calm and very loved. Still has lots of MH issues but life is ok and siblings are fine now.

Thinking of you💐

This. 100%.

I think focussing on what you can do is a great start. You can make sure that you have your own emotions in check by doing your best to enjoy that cup of tea mindfully, take a breathe and gather yourself. You can make sure she's in a safe environment to get these feelings out, as you have done. You can seek solidarity on the internet. You can gather evidence to show GP's or whoever else. You can make sure your other child is safe and knows their loved and whatever messages the 5 year old said aren't true and shouldn't be taken too seriously. You can try and consider how you're going to notice the positives today. All kids are different, so it's hard to say what's helped or worked in my household and apply it to yours. But the circle of influence feels like a good place to start.

Not sure if you'll be able to read every reply OP, my daughter has anger problems, pushing her friends, hitting, smacking, squeezing etc. The worst I've had is a fractured rib.

I think you need to find ways to reduce her stress, bedtime is obviously a major one. My dd doesn't sleep, never has but I've refused medication up to now, that may change in the future.
For your own sanity I would probably put her to bed, say 10.30. Ask if she wants a bedtime story, give her some water and leave her to it. A little snack before bedtime might be helpful too. My dd is older so has more of an understanding that her actions have consequences, if she decides to mess about instead of trying to go to sleep, then she'll be tired and moody but will still have to endure my morning singing and dancing while I'm tidying the house or go to school.
There have been times, where she couldn't settle at all so we would "sneak" into the garden to play in the paddling pool at midnight or look at the stars.

Your 3 year olds safety is obviously something to think about, maybe your dd is resentful of her? I know I did some awful things as a child to my younger sibling, because I was jealous. Because I wanted all the attention for myself.
Maybe you could have a day where you go in the garden and let loose with some paints, all together. Paint each other's faces and be silly. Get your daughter involved with teaching your 3 year old something so she feels important.

I know how you're feeling, it feels like there is no light at the end. But there is, underneath that little ball of anger is a lovely little girl, I'm sure of it. I wouldn't take it personally. Kids are going through so many changes, they don't yet understand how to deal with their emotions. It does get better. Sometimes we just have to put or "fk it attitude" on and let things be. Life doesn't always have to be so structured or serious.

I don't know if she is jealous of her sister. I really don't. She hates not being able to make a choice. But that's not just limited to her sister. If I make a decision she hates it. She can be so kind to her. She will literally give her the coat off her back. I forgot my 3 year olds teddy the other day and my 5 year old gave her hers without even a thought. But then on the flip side she is hurting her. I have to take the 3 year old to the toilet with me. I can't leave her alone.
I try and have time alone with each child. As does dad and we do family things. I never leave one out. If we go to the shop and I buy the 3 year old something, example I bought her a small backpack for nursery and the 5 year old got a backpack. She doesn't even need a backpack but I won't leave her out.
I don't know what she feels about her sister. On one hand she says she loves her and she wants her to play. My 3 year old however won't play with her. Experience has taught her it's probably going to hurt so she keeps a very wide berth. 5 year old takes any rejection very personally. She will sob that her sister doesn't love her. And will scream in her face that she will play with her because she says so. That doesn't help obviously. And then she gets physical. And it's just pushing my 3 year old further away from her sister.

Can she describe her emotions?

@GrouchyKiwi to a certain extent. She can tell me she's angry. And she can tell me she's sad. She's never been able to tell me she's hungry, bored or frustrated. I can tell because, well I'm her mum. She doesn't know she's thirsty. Ever. If I didn't give her a glass of milk or water and specifically say this is for you please drink it. She wouldn't drink.

@soupfiend I'm not sure it's helpful to OP to discuss that stuff here. If you want to discuss it on AIBU go for it? This is a Parenting thread.

OP, I'm sorry you're having such a crap day.

If school start is this week do you think DD is in a complete anxiety spiral maybe? What was she like at nursery? Was she attached to anyone there? Could you maybe try to speak to them tomorrow if so?

Your 3 yo may actually be more emotionally mature than the 5yo.

My DD starts y7 tomorrow and is very emotionally volatile right now despite loads of planning and prep and an EHCP.

Yours is so little. I can reason a little with DD at age 11 but I couldn't when she was 5. She kicked my shins such a lot. I'm getting psychosomatic pain in them right now thinking about it.

She's developed into a pretty good footballer though. Silver linings eh?

I hope you and DH can have a cup of tea and a cuddle.

Start a diary. It's good to write stuff down. When things are better you can look back it and see your progress.

I had feelings like yours. The lovely NVR guy called it "blocked care".

thechildpsychologyservice.co.uk/advice-strategy/blocked-care/

I'm a teacher. Some of the teenagers are really difficult. We are advised to start each day/interaction with "unconditional positive regard". Try to let go of the previous stuff if you can. Hit reset. Catch her being good. Praise any tiny positive thing she does this afternoon.

im sorry you are going through this, i have 2 autistic children, my eldest daughter and my youngest son, my daughter has never hit me/bit/scratched etc my son however used to hit, and headbutt, ive had 2 black eyes from him, bruises, blood blisters where hes pinched me, he doesn’t do it anymore, last time he hit me was 3/4 years ago and i am very glad as at 9 he is a big lad, he has gone to a few times over the years but a quick “don’t you dare or don’t even think about it’ tends to stop him, i don’t think he understood that the hitting/headbutting hurt as he has very high pain threshold (its actually on his EHCP to keep and eye on him incase he bangs his head as he wouldn’t come for help and it could be worse than he is showing) i did smack his bum a few times, (slam me all you want it worked) not enough to hurt him but it did shock him and i think showed him its not nice to be hit and that he didn’t like it and neither does mummy, only took a few times but he soon realised “ i don’t like that” and the hitting/headbutting/pinching stopped, he mostly only hit me, and his siblings once or twice but now he doesn’t hit anymore, doesn’t headbutt etc he still screams the house down sometimes when hes upset/frustrated but that i can ignore, let him get it out his system and then when hes calm see what he wants/what i can do to help, i know how hard it is to deal with a child that seems to ruin everyone elses fun (he gave me a black eye at crealy once because he couldn’t go on a ride and had to que) and me and OH had said many times it would be so much easier to go on days out with the other kids without him, but now apart from the odd tantrum here n there he is much calmer and more communicative with us instead of letting frustration win and throwing punches xx

DD's OT recommended this book, and the bigger one that goes with it (How Do I Feel). It really helped DD find words to understand what was going on with her emotions, including the happy ones. She looked at it first with the OT and they talked about some of them (like frustration), and then DD just looked at it by herself. But she was 11, so a lot older. As phineyj says, it is a LOT easier when they're older and have a bit more in the way of reasoning skills.

Let it Flow: Healthy ways to release emotions!: Amazon.co.uk: Lipp, Rebekah, Phillips, Craig: 9781991179777: Books

I also agree with phineyj about the positive/praise comments. My three all like hearing praise, but for DD1 it has so much more meaning. When I mention something lovely she has done her whole face lights up and she's so happy. It lasts for a good half hour or so! It's really beautiful to watch.

@PPhineyj she struggled with nursery. She was OK when she was there. But getting her there was a nightmare. She had a massive meltdown when her key worker left midway thru the year. They said it was normal. I believed them. Reception was a nightmare. She was sick and missed a few days and as a result of this she never wanted to go back. She would just scream. Find something else to do other than getting dressed. She would demand that her sister go to school because it's not fair that she has to.

You know your probably right. My 3 year old is more emotionally mature. I've always thought kids develop in there own time and way. But I can ask my 3 year old how she is and what she wants to do and I get an answer. She can tell me she's bored or that she's sad. Yes she's had tantrums but nothing like what I'm dealing with with the elder.

I know people say home schooling but I'm sorry, I can't. I need the space from her. My other child certainly does. I have to find a balance between her needs and the rest of the household. I've just said to my husband the urge to just keep driving with the 3 year old and go somewhere far away was so strong this morning. I'd never do it of course but he said the same. He said he gets to work and thinks of never coming back.

Not knowing if she is thirsty is a sign of poor interoception. I mentioned this upthread - but you probably missed it - interoception is another sense referring to our ability to understand our internal state and might involve not knowing we’re thirsty, not knowing we need the toilet until it’s too late, not knowing that a raise heart rate means we’re anxious or scared.

its a very young age to understand how she’s feeling - she might not even know and if she’s deregulated she wouldn’t be able to tell you any way. Are there ever moments when she’s calm? When she might want to talk perhaps in an abstract way about emotions rather than herself. She might be ashamed of her behaviour. When my dd was like this we read a book called the Red Beast about a child who went to school and when angry the little red beast within him took over his body and caused an angry rampage. I have spent many years telling my daughter that she is an amazing person who sometimes has impulses that affect her behaviour and that it’s my job to support her to find a way to
help her control those impulses.

I also taught her about fight or flight how it was a great mechanism when we were cavemen but some people struggle with it now. She was probably ten when I taught her about this.

Also the coke bottle analogy. You could ask her what she hates and shake a bottle every time she says something and then watch it fizz out at the end. My dd tells me about her coke bottle still and she’s a teen.

my final point - does she need to go to school? Can you home school her while you work this out?

My daughter can't describe her emotions either, she doesn't know why she does what she does.
I think by you clinging to your 3 y.o it's going to make it worse, unfortunately. She's going to see that you take her everywhere and while we understand it's for safety reasons, she probably won't. I can't leave my child unattended with animals because one minute she will be fine, and the next she's shaking her tortoise or slapping the dog. Because they've made too much noise or licked her.
Her brothers are a few years older (step brothers, they don't live with us) but in the days they stay my daughter has brought her 15 year old brother to tears for hurting him, literally snapping a play toy on his head. Some people don't understand the strength of a child and how much they can hurt.

There is a 10 week course you can go on, it's called family links, if im remembering correctly its one day a week for around 3 hours, school can also refer you to a sleep course, run over a couple of days online. It is usually for children with extra needs but they will make an exception for kids on a waiting list etc. They weren't too helpful for me but it was so nice to have other parents in a similar situation to talk to. You could self refer to CAMHS, schools also should have a counsellor in place that children can talk to if they need to, there are other places too but i cant remember off the top of my head.

You aren't alone in this.

@sstealthninjamum no she needs to go to school. I can't home school her. My energy is empty. My 3 year old needs some space. I need to balance everyone here. I feel horrible saying it but if she's here 24/7 I won't be.

I think it's a really good idea to video so that you can demonstrate the behaviour. Again this is something to show to the Senco at school because it will validate the fact she's masking hard. Senco could also formulate some social stories that will help her communicate more effectively. Some people with ADHD suffer from Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria which it sounds to me she is suffering with. Have a Google, there are lots of useful parenting/SEN pages.

Again, get her some ear defenders as soon as you can. I really underestimated how helpful they are. My son still uses the Loop version now he's a young teen and doesn't want overhead ones. They make all the difference to them.

Also, if you are on Facebook, seek out local SEN support pages. I'm in Herts and we have Space and ADD-Vance. See if you have similar. It makes a world of difference speaking and seeking advice from parents walking the same mile

Yes I understand. My husband left and sometimes I used to be the car day dreaming about driving 500 miles away to start a new life. But dd has calmed down and hasn’t been violent for two or three years. I promise it will get better but I understand it won’t feel like it.

She hates not being able to make a choice. But that's not just limited to her sister. If I make a decision she hates it.

Do look up Pathological Demand Avoidence (PDA) as others have suggested OP.

Oh, I am sorry. Your nursery and reception teacher have not done well by you. It is obvious the problems have not come out of the blue. Has no-one ever suggested an EHC needs' assessment? It drives me bonkers that professionals let parents suffer like this. At least then you could get occupational therapy and educational psychology assessments done without paying for them.

I suggested ADHD to the year 1 teacher and she basically said she'd grow out of it. It wasn't until year 2 (which for us was 2020-1) that I had the opportunity to observe DD a lot at home trying and failing to learn and realised she needed assessing.

If you feel strongly that you can't have her at home more then you must throw everything into working with the school. Ask them to request the EHCNA and if they don't, request one yourself from the council. Ask them to refer to OT, educational psychology, play therapy - even if waiting lists are long, get her name on them.

Posters on here will support you with the bureaucratic stuff.

The website "Not Fine in School" may be useful.

Do they ever ask you to pick her up early? You may need to familiarise yourself with the law on illegal exclusions.

My 11 yo is much less mature than her 9 yo mate next door...

No assessment has ever been made. She started nursery in 2022. And they said that her delays and tempers were down to her being in lockdown would have had an effect on her behaviour.
I will speak to the school on Wednesday. Go from there.