I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

Syndromes with behavior that challenge - you can research these and learn how to parent really challenging kids who don’t respond as a typical child would.
If you think you can help - you can get involved and volunteer or offer any help or donate.

Angelman Syndrome (Colin Farrell’s child has this)
Prader-Wili Syndrome
Sotos Syndrome
Williams Syndrome
Smith-Magenis Syndrome
WAGR syndrome
CHARGE syndrome
Fragile X
etc
etc
There are dozens

How about every time she feels like hitting, she puts a pebble in a jar instead, and when the jar is full she gets a special treat. And an opportunity each time a pebble goes in to talk through her feelings calmly and support her with the difficult feelings she is experiencing, validate them and praise her for showing restraint and speaking properly about her feelings. Really get on her side with supporting her through the difficult feelings she is having. Although 5 her emotional age developmentally is much younger, when acting out you need to respond to her as you would a toddler. Firm but calm, not too much talking, let her calm down. Patient. All storms pass. Then talk it out briefly, then hug, back to normal. I think a reward chart based on things she already succeeds at (we had one for tooth brushing) purely to boost her self esteem would be a good idea. More quiet unstructured time with no screens or activities. She may be highly intelligent and creative and feeling frustrated that she can't let her mind wander. TV gets in the way of their play. A really early bedtime (6.30). Possibly melatonin. Try also to somehow have some fun together - put music on and dance together, get popcorn and watch a film, kick a ball, whatever is genuinely fun for you all you have to make a point of doing it because you need that joy to glue you together and get you through it

You've solved everything @coxesorangepippin, hooray!

Maybe now kids in wheelchairs will start walking too. Sure all they have to do is copy their parents. Who knew!?

Or maybe it's not that simple...🤔

My elder sister was exactly like this, violent, defiant, quiet at school, everything.
She ruined every Christmas, holiday, friendship, everything.

All of our food was home made from scratch, and as for screen time, we didn’t even have a television. So it wasn’t that.

I think she was massively jealous of her siblings and hated us all, frankly.

Just wanted to say that you and your husband sound like absolute saints. Well done you for getting this far. Parenting is hard enough, and then adding on all those things that you've said... I'd have not wanted that child either.

There's been some interesting advice on this thread, I hope something in here works for you. Please try to let yourself unwind - the stress must be horrific.

For me, the violence is the worst part. I'd find it intolerable. I echo what others have said to keep the two kids separate at all times. And others have mentioned techniques that sound like they subdue violent behaviour - try that. Sticking the kid in her room in a quiet space for a time out with a tall stair gate - that might be what I'd do.

And as a last resort, I feel like I'd also consider the care option. There's only so much of yourself you can give. I could not cope in your position. Don't feel bad for thinking any way you might be thinking. You sound like you're doing your best.

It is illegal to buy in the UK unless you have a prescription

OP it sounds dreadful and I agree you need professional help if you can get it.

DS8 has been a bit like this in the past. Not as bad. I totally hear you about the unfairness to the younger sibling.

I want to say two things.

1. Can you talk to her at a more general level about how she's feeling and how she's behaving? Not when she's in a rage, some other quiet time. Gently explain how bad things are and what needs to change. Try to find out what triggers or motivates the behavior. I know she is only 5 but I have a 4.5 year old (she's not the difficult one) and this kind of conversation is possible on a simple level. To some extent you may be able to predict and avoid. Have you read 'the explosive child'?

1. Can you create a secure space where she can't destroy anything or hurt herself, where she can be put when she needs to calm down? DS did group therapy with some very troubled kids. One of them had to sleep in an actual cage to prevent her from burning the house down or attacking people in their sleep. I am not advocating a cage but maybe a padded area with a tough door? If you are all being physically attacked a lot it would be good to have a way to keep everyone safe.

physical contact is important too, what works for her. She may need bear hugs, a weighted blanket, something like artificial grass to rub her feet against or she may hate all the and want to opposite. Really helpful to find the contact/sensory stuff she does want and help her get it

Yes, this too. DS has a sensory swing, he lives in it.

Oh please.
OP got two children.
Her primary role is to keep both safe.
Secondary role is to integrate a child to society.
So if DD is violent towards siblings and mother, yes, she does need much more discipline than OP is providing.

Btw I just love how MN is "open forum" deleting anything that is not total left wing soft core.

@LondonFox
Not being open to beating a possibly disabled 5 year old does not make one 'left wing soft core'🙄

@LondonFox the last thing you want to do in this situation is model using violent behavior to get your way.

DD has to learn that violence is totally unacceptable.

Are you unable to read?

Where did I said it was acceptable to beat a child?
Obviously not.

OP got two children. Her primary role is to keep both safe even if it means using physical force to show that abusing weaker sibling will not be tolerated.

And can we please stop calling every wild child "possibly disabled". Unless child got diagnosed by a doctor it is more likely it is just pushing bounderies of how far it can go.

I don’t see how anyone can read what is happening here and attribute this to lazy or terrible parenting.

It is honestly reminding me of when my son was suffering with severe reflux and vomiting up to 30 times a day and people would respond with “have you tried holding him upright after feedings?”

I know this may be hard for some people to hear, but not everything is a mother’s fault. Some children need more help.

Also....the ''masking'' word that is used so often- this presumably means the child is behaving well at some times of day.
So they 'can' behave, if they feel they have to.

At school there used to be stricter and effective teachers- were the whole class ''masking'' in these teacher's classes?

This sounds like her old ''lunatic asylums'' as they were called. Padded cells.

This is crazy to suggest for a domestic home.

Although google does shows that they are now called ''calming rooms'' or ''time out'' rooms or ''sensory rooms''. Seems they are still a thing.

Yeah just lock the child away in her bedroom that will work 🙄🙄🙄
Have you any idea how patronising yoy sound when you ay yoy couldn't cope?
Parents of disabled children are not some kind of special angels yheu have no choice but to cope ,as for the "care " comment you have no idea ¹

OP, can you get a credit card and go private to a pediatrician? You need specialist advice. I know you said you can’t afford it, but you can’t keep living like this

All this talking.

It is quite likely this 5 year old doesn't KNOW why she's behaving this way. She probably can't identify the feelings she's having. She is 5 and quite possibly overwhelmed by primary school.

With some kids it can take years and years of patient work before they can articulate what they are feeling. "How to talk so.kids will listen" type stuff just doesn't work till they're more regulated.

When a kid's this overwhelmed the priority is to minimise the stressors in the environment and minimise the fallout. The 3 year old needs physically removing from the situation as much as possible for the moment.

When people mention glass jars and pebbles it just makes it obvious they've never dealt with this. Do not leave potential weapons lying about!

I'm sure you're long gone, OP, but talk to school. Keep a diary. Follow up some of the more sensible options suggested. Ignore the bonkers ones. Get what support you can for yourself.

And adding a ton of debt will help how exactly?

I've read everything. Last night was horrible. She fell asleep at 2 am but she tried to kick and punch me as usual. She slipped and smacked her head on the door handle. More screaming abuse that I'd hurt her. I think I've broken my finger. I restrained her and my finger has gone back. Husband has her this morning. Just going to get toddler ready to drop off at grandparents. No I don't have favourites but God I do not want to spend a full day with her. Horrible i know but take away the fact she's my child anyone else who hurt me this way, well I'd never see them again

Sorry OP, i don't know if you can plough through all these posts but in my previous LA where a paediatrician was one of the diagnostic clinicians for ASD assessment, you could ask to be referred to him for melatonin for disordered sleep. I was told it was really straightforward, very effective for starting sleep and extremely low risk. Might be worth raising with the GP. Good luck.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead's advice is good. Everything is very area dependent in the UK and pathways vary hugely - surprisingly so in a supposedly national system.

If you Google "local offer" as I suggested you should be able to find parents who've been though it who can advise.

In my area (London Borough bordering Kent) it's an open secret that everyone uses a charity based in Kent staffed by moonlighting NHS paediatricians. They do a single assessment incorporating ADOS (ASD assessment) and QB check (ADHD) and speech and language.

You need to check any assessments are NICE-compatible.

The "shared titration" thing is that GPs sometimes won't accept private assessments/diagnoses for prescribing.

However, as I said upthread, our GP gladly accepted our private melatonin prescription and when we finally saw an NHS paediatrician (4 years after first seeking referral!) he was impressed with the assessment we'd had done and said there was no need to re-do it. We haven't tried to access ADHD medication but he was happy to put us on the list for his medication clinic had we wished. And he signposted us to what local services exist.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound patronising. It's just that I would not be cope in the situation OP is in, and I feel for her, and I hear her desperation.

I would absolutely pick the kid up at the onset of a meltdown and put them in their own room, behind a stairgate.

Dad doesn't deserve 15 stitches
Mum doesn't deserve a black eye
3 year old must be absolutely terrified witnessing the above and getting hurt too.

Just to add. What sort of problems might the 3 year old develop if they've learnt they can't even have a voice, or give a preference, because the 5 year old needs to make all the choices, and if they don't then violence ensues.

Maybe the 5 year is ND but the situation above is totally intolerable.

People have no choice but to cope that's the point!