I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

In the past people were often ashamed to post, didn't have access to Internet or simply didn't know their children may have sen. Awareness of sen had increased and more people are happy to talk about it, and it's no longer a taboo.

Okay, well I have my own theories on this but this isn’t the thread for it. This is the OPs thread where she asks for support with her child, not where she opened a debate into neurodivergent children.

If people wish to debate that they need to start another thread about that specifically l, not derail the OPs with their thoughts on the subject matter.

I’m sure that accounts for some of it but nowhere near all. It simply wasn’t the case that every other parent was living a secret struggle. It has most definitely risen and anybody who has worked in childcare or education for 20+ years will tell you the same.

I do agree that these things could effect a child, but non of them cause neurodiversity

I have a horrible feeling there’s something we are all missing by instantly rushing to neurodiversity without taking the time to explore other causes first

^

This.

They're missing parenting. The adult is the parent. They show the child how to behave. By parenting.

It's that simple.

You’re probably right.

I just think immediately steering OP toward neurodiversity could be a BIG mistake if there is some kind of biological factor at play here. This could be something very instantly treatable, and yet rather than explore that everyone is just suggesting assessment.

My cousin has ADHD and autism. They're really, really pronounced in him. But he's also got higher than average cognitive ability and a good vocabulary, and he works very hard to fit in by masking, and that meant that he was seen as a wilful troublemaker when we were at school (he was born in 1978) and excluded at 16. He was diagnosed in his 20s after yet another public order offence, got on social services' radar, had a keyworker who got him for a while, but it was too late for him to achieve the potential that could have been unlocked with some of the interventions they have for kids like him now. So kids with these conditions were not seen for what they are until relatively recently.

Also, people were - still are - ashamed to talk about not being able to control their kids, frightened their kids would be taken away if they asked for help. Even on this thread someone told this OP that if she asked for her five year old to be taken away she would lose her three year old instead. That seems insane to me but it's the kind of thing that is said to women on this anonymous forum all the time.

So lots of reasons why kids with neurodivergence weren't seen until relatively recently.

Yawn

A diagnosis isn’t going to stop the behaviour no, but at least they’ll get help with trying to find ways to help with dealing with it!!
My priority would be getting help as it would be beneficial for the family regardless of costs
We’ve got a DD with ADHA and getting the correct help was a godsend

Assessments quite often rule out ASD and ADHD in kids. Going for an assessment doesn't mean there will be a diagnosis.

It has risen slightly, but I have beena teacher for 15 years and loads of kids when I started would fit the profile of asc or add but had no paperwork nor support.. I know a huge number of parents who only got diagnosis after their kids got one and they clocked in they may be in the spectrum themselves, people now in their 30s and 40s. I think back to my school days and no one had a diagnosis, and yet loads of kids struggled. Add was a taboo almost. So no, I dont believe there is a weird unaccounted for raise in cases, it's been there, just people didn't know or didn't wanted to talk about it.

Behaviour has massively deteriorated so I’m surprised given the lack of support and diagnoses that it wasn’t as bad back then.

I’m just going to mention a Pom Pom jar instead of a sticker chart. (Little crafting colourful and sparkly Pom Pom’s that you get ant B&M, Hobbycraft etc). Especially as you’ve said she’s creative and sounds like she might be quite visual. It’s colourful, fun, easy to see the Pom Pom’s add up. Then when she’s good you add them, and when she’s not you take them away. Put it somewhere high she can’t reach. When the jar gets filled… a little treat for her - Disney magazine, sweets of her choice, squishy toy.
I know you have much bigger issues going on but thought this could be an easy quick fix for you at least to try. Sticker charts have never worked on my kids, not visually stimulating or fun enough and always felt like school.

I wish you all the best. You can do this. You will all come through it xx

What would you have done @coxesorangepippin? I am genuinely interested.

My mum used to ask things like that but when I explored them further, she hadn't really encountered behaviour like that.

Me: DD wouldn't go to school
Mum: Well that's not up to her is it? I would have made her!
Me: So you would have picked her up and carried her to the car?
Mum: Er? Maybe?
Me: And forced her into the car? And forced her seat belt on?
Mum: Well, no...
Me: What are you suggesting then?

I never disclosed the violent behaviours to my mum actually.

And I didn't disclose them to friends either after getting a few shocked reactions.

You need quite good impulse control to manage any kind of reward system. And some DC get quite upset by them.

If you must try one on a totally disregulated child, please don't use a glass jar!

I haven’t read every post, but I have worked in Sen schools and PRUs.

reduce all expectations, ditch anything you think you should do and concentrate on needs. Please and thank you can come later, hairstyles, cute outfits anything that causes a row consider if you can just ditch it.

consider sensory issues and how to minimise, lights, sounds, tight clothes, overwhelming super markets, being hungry, being tired, being nagged - those are all my triggers and I’m NT figure out some of her triggers and resolve them. I do not wear jeans ever after noticing I was over stimulated and snappy every time I did. If clothes/getting dressed a trigger find something she will wear and make it like a uniform. Mine wear different colour leggings and tops each day, if they wouldn’t put pjs on it wouldn’t really matter as they are comfy, in fact ditch pjs and live in leggings and tops.

Focus on the food groups and don’t worry too much about variety, add in protein and good fats where you can. Try to reduce carbs. If she will eat something good for her then don’t worry if she wants it every day.

Do everything you can to increase sleep. Hound the gp, increase exercise, let her watch a film in bed or listen to an audio book, Especially reduce before bed arguments to get her at a low stress level before bed. Even reduce the pressure to sleep, tell her that resting in bed watching tv is nearly as good as sleep. Pressure to sleep will make it all worse.

physical contact is important too, what works for her. She may need bear hugs, a weighted blanket, something like artificial grass to rub her feet against or she may hate all the and want to opposite. Really helpful to find the contact/sensory stuff she does want and help her get it

Had exactly this discussion with a neighbour about a mutual neighbour's kid's school refusal. It was really hard to get her to understand that her NT kid's occasional grumbling about not wanting to go to school wasn't the same thing as what our other neighbour was managing.

My autistic, PDA DD finds the prospect of 'a reward' absolutely paralysing.

I like @Whackawhacka's advice.

In our case DC needs:

Loads of exercise. Loads and loads. Especially on a weekend morning.

Lots of physical contact especially when away from home.

Lots of company ideally of her own age or younger. Goes funny with just adults for any length of time.

Unpicking of what might have happened at school. Once she refused to go on Friday because (she eventually disclosed) the PE teacher had "beed mean" to her on Wednesday. But she'd gone in happily on Thursday. It was World Book day so didn't count 😬.

Strong relationship with trusted adult at school.

Melatonin.

Actually my DC does love a reward chart. For me and DH. One of her favourite activities when younger was making us a maths worksheet to do and marking it.

She graded everything in my sketchbook the other day. She was quite severe. I got 3/10 for one of them 😂.

Sounds like you're trying your best in very tough circumstances, OP. Don't be hard on yourself. It's impossible not to feel like you're failing under such hard circumstances, but the fact that you're on here, looking for support, and booking appointments with the GP, means upu are not. You know there's an issue and you're working on it.

You said you're ringing the GP on Monday. Just so you are aware, not all GPs have heard of Right to Choose for an autism diagnosis. I'm not saying that's the case for all GPs, but be prepared for the possibility of having to educate your GP about it. Mine had never heard of it, so I had to literally walk him through it step by step. I wrote a letter to him about it as I wanted everything on record (happy to share if helpful - pm me with your email address if you want it). I've heard other people say their GP told them Right to Choose is only for adults, but that's not the case. If I were you, I'd try to research it BEFORE you see the GP, and decide who you would like to 'Choose' for your child's assessment. I'd also phone them up to check on availability/ waiting times. Then you can go to the GP knowing exactly what you want.

If there's one thing I've learned this year, it's that the professionals don't have all the answers, and you have to do a LOT of research and digging yourself. Basically, you have to become the expert, and use the professionals as a means to get what you know your child needs. You also get taken much more seriously if you go to them fully informed.

Best of luck, and drop me a pm if I can help at all. I'm no expert but my 5 year old sounds very similar and we've put a lot in place this year. I got a lot of help and advice from people from mumsnet, and will be forever grateful, so am very happy to offer something back.

Also, I wanted to add that many ND children mask at school so schools not likely to notice anything amiss. I also wanted to say that being ND absolutely does not mean that someone will be violent or aggressive. There may well be physiologic underpinnings for your oldest’s behaviour, things like sleep apnea can absolutely destroy a child’s behaviour, so it is important to pursue all pathways. I might try to get a private neuropsychiatric evaluation, they can do an in depth assessment and have a think along different axes. X

Just specifically about sleep, I can personally recommend thesleepfixer.com. Kerry is amazing, has loads of experience around ND and other special needs and will definitely have strategies. There is a modest cost and it will involve some work and effort on your part typically for a few weeks but if everyone ends up with better sleep life should start to get a bit easier

My GP is fab but tbh I could hear them scribbling down notes after we sourced our own assessments and therapies.

And their referrals all bounced back anyway. They were as frustrated as we were.

At least they'll be able to advise the next person eh?!

Also OP I don't know if you mentioned your area.

Some trusts will only do one referral at a time. Not all GPs are aware of this but if they send a referral for autism and ADHD in a single referral area both get rejected. This happened for my brother who is now at the back of the wait list because of this mistake.

Our school also says they can't really instigate or assist in an ADHD assessment until the child is at least 7, I think this is so that they can evidence behaviour reports that show that it isn't just behaviour the child will grow out of, but I don't know if this is just our area or if it's a national policy. We're in South Yorkshire.

My sons autism diagnosis took 11 months from referral to diagnosis and mine took 4 months, both NHS, but we were told for both that when we request an ADHD assessment this will be significantly longer. We have decided to go for NHS referrals again due to the risk of refusal of shared titration.

In short, it might be worth asking for just an autism referral. In a wide estimate of something like 30-80% of cases autism and ADHD are comorbid of eachother, and you may still be able to do RTC for ADHD and be on the NHS pathway for autism. Ask your GP about it on Monday, and just double check how it works in your area.

Best of luck to you, and in the meantime absence of a diagnosis doesn't mean absence of condition so please pop over to the SEN board and you might find some gems of information for low demand approaches that still enforce boundaries.