I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

Op I have only read your comments and I want to send you massive hugs. My daughter was like yours - a relentless bundle of aggression and defiance. She has pda syndrome - which is a type of autism where she has an obsessive need to be in charge and control situations and avoid demands. It’s a reaction to extreme anxiety caused by demands. Added to that she has adhd which comes out as extreme impulsiveness. She never sees consequences and has broken so many things because no matter how often I tell her a consequence she can’t stop herself being destructive. This has improved but in the past she has broken jewellery, ripped my clothes in frustration, broken crockery, I could go on.

The pda society website has resources on how to cope with a child with pda. One tip is to use declarative language rather than demands where you explain what is happening and hope she’ll pick up on the cue. Also you need to lead by example, so if I was ever up later than her she would tell me off so I’d end up going to bed at 9. Try not to shout or raise your voice (I know this is easier said than done) and reassure her that you love her.

I would keep a diary of what happens before the behaviour. Consider her senses (and look up interoception which is how we sense our internal state) - smell, taste, hearing, touch, sight. Look to see if lights are too bright, things too noisy etc. Also think about how you explain what is going to happen, to minimise anxiety. My dd suffers from extreme social anxiety so we often roll play conversations beforehand but she’s a teenager so can tell me what is upsetting her. You might need to find books or have conversations about feelings / senses to help her with any of these and I have heard that social stories can be good for a child who struggles with some situations. I don’t know if it would help to read books about feelings and emotions to your younger daughter and hope your older daughter overhears?

I am very calm because shouting makes her worse. It feels counterintuitive to be kind sometimes and I have another daughter who has found it unfair that we left an activity because her sister ruined a day out. One day your other daughter will understand but I understand it is hard at the moment.

anyway I am waffling on, if you think it might be pda, the pda society website is excellent.

Behaving at school and letting it out at home is classic autistic masking.

Really really common.

JAMA has.

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/485884#:~:text=The%20children%20with%20the%20most,hyperactivity%2C%20oppositional%2C%20and%20cognitive.

Sorry if this is duplicate information, I haven't read the full thread - only the OP posts. Just with you mentioning Right To Choose, this website is quite useful for listing some of the different providers available: https://adhduk.co.uk/right-to-choose/

Not all RTC providers will provide assessments for children, so that's worth checking either on the service provider's website or by giving them a ring. It's also worth checking if they provide assessment only, or treatment if diagnosed - otherwise you could face another long wait for treatment even if diagnosed. Children's mental health services are in a shocking state at the minute and waiting lists are awful. I hope you manage to get some help and support soon.

This makes me feel really sad to read @Mrsdyna

You sound like you might be coming from a place of trying to help, so I mean this gently.

What those trained and researching child development know, from lots of research, is that shaming and embarrassing a child, although it may stop some unwanted behaviour, can also leave them feeling really deeply they are “bad” which can lead to many problems down the line.

To be honest modern methods can’t be up to much - since we started using them these scenarios seem so so so much more common.

OP - you sound like a lovely mum doing the best you can in incredibly difficult circumstances.

I am NT and my DP has ASD. Many of the ways ASD children behave make a lot of sense when you try to look through the world through their eyes e.g.:

Preferring 'junk food' - it's the same every time therefore they know what they're getting and don't have to confront novelty every meal which can be really stressful.

Spending time outside the house - For by DP this really depends on the environment, he loves being in nature but if we're indoors much prefers to go places already known to him.

Sleep - my DP still struggles with feeling tired at a normal time - it's common for people with ASD to not produce sufficient melatonin - the hormone that makes their body feel sleepy - when he gets into a sleep rut, a couple of nights sleep aided by melatonin helps him get back to feeling well rested, which in turn helps him cope with day to day life.

It's impossible to say whether you DD has ASD or ADHD from your post, but the behaviours you describe certainly point to it.

Neuro diversity is hard to live with for the individual and tough for the family unit, but so much easier once you understand the difference in perspective. Appreciate you may not have much capacity for reading right now but if you have the chance these are really helpful:

The reason I jump - Naoki Higashida
What is Interoception - Kelly Mahler
Emotional regulation - theory and practice - Benjine Gerber
The explosive child - Ross W Greene

Also - please don't listen to posters saying conventional discipline and boundaries will work if you daughter is diagnosed - my DP is still unwinding the impact of his own parents doing this. It can be very damaging.

Fingers crossed your new GP is.more helpful!

An ADOS will (of course) ask about diet, sleep, family etc. It's a holistic assessment.

Keeping a diary is a good idea though.

It's so common for DC to have somewhat restricted eating at 5. I really don't think it's the main issue here. She's eating a variety of foods.

However, ADHD means dopamine is lacking and sugary stuff and (sadly) picking fights can be unconscious attempts to boost dopamine.

I’m sorry you are getting advice from parents of children who don’t behave like this. It must be lovely living in a land where thinking that naughty steps, stickers and no tv will fix a child’s behaviour. Please find support from parents that understand. Others have mentioned it but PDA support and Facebook groups would be a great place to start. Also books like the explosive child (and the fb group that goes with it). Other practical things like claiming dla now will help. It is needs based so you don’t need a diagnosis and if awarded it gives extra money that could help with some rest bite for you. And look at right to choose for a diagnoses. The wait lists are much shorter than nhs but the nhs pay. Finding other parents that you can also talk to is also a god send. Just being able to text someone to offload about no sleep and having chairs thrown at you and knowing that they understand and won’t judge or offer solutions is so valuable.

Or it teaches them that you deal with problems by using your actions, rather than your words.

Essentially, you are doing to them what you are telling them not to do.

I'm sorry your family is struggling right now. I haven't read the full thread, only OP's posts but I have a similar aged DC with diagnosed ASD and I recognise a lot of these behaviours you describe. My DC works with an occupational therapist to support their sensory needs and this is some of the advice we've received:

• use a daily timetable, even down to the small tasks. This can be reviewed the night before so that everyone knows what to expect the following day and allow DC to have input into the daily activities - so for example, your list might be:

Get out of bed
Breakfast
Get dressed
Craft activity
Lunch time
Park
etc

Autistic children typically respond well to structure and knowing what to expect. Even small changes to their daily routine can be overwhelming. Also tied in with that is managing transitions between activities. Do you give warnings? For example, we're going to leave the park in 10 minutes, in 5 minutes, we've got 3 minutes left. Also look at using child friendly timers for switching between tasks.

• Do less. One of the things my child's OT told us was that parents often try to keep their children busy and pack their day with lots of different activities but this can often be overstimulating to a child with ASD. With my DC we need to break up the week with planned home days with calmer activities or carving out an hour after school for quiet time with low demands. I know your daughter doesn't like to be home but maybe it's what she needs occasionally. She might retaliate at first because she's still in a heightened state but over time it may help to have more planned down time.

• Have you tried ear defenders for her? Don't underestimate how big of a difference this can make for some children. Did you say she struggled with noise at school or have I made that up? I would try to find a quiet space in your home that you can set up and make just for her with sensory aids - chewy teether type toys (you mention she bites often, this can be a sensory seeking behaviour), fidget toys, weighted blanket, squishy toys, rubix cubes, playdough, eye mask etc. Don't treat this space as a punishment, rather encourage her to take some time out - "oh I can see you're feeling unhappy that your sister has chosen to watch Bluey today. Why don't we go to your calm space and pick something to play with and then once DS has finished you can choose something you would like to watch"

• we have a hitter too and no amount of shouting or punishment will work with a neurodiverse, disregulated child. If my DC hits, they get a warning which would be "I can see you're upset that Daddy can't play with you right now. It's ok to feel disappointed but it's not ok to hit. Please don't hurt Daddy" identifying the emotions and feelings helps them to understand why they are wanting to lash out. If this doesn't stop the hitting behaviour, we take my DC to their bedroom and use a baby gate so the door isn't closing them in. Putting a barrier between them and us. I don't leave and my DC can see me at all times. I will usually follow with "I can see you still feel like hitting so to keep you and Daddy safe, we need to take some time out. Once you feel ready to stop hitting, sit on your bed so I know you're ready and I can some in and give you a cuddle" We used to have big battles at the bedroom gate but now it only takes a couple of minutes to de escalate. Lots of cuddles and once everyone is calm again, reinforce the boundary that hitting isn't safe and we can't hurt others but it's ok to feel angry and we can try X Y Z instead next time - this might be using your words or using a flashcard, going to the calm space, breathing exercises.

Another thing to mention, I don't know if this works for everyone but my DC really needs active time before bed otherwise it can be really difficult to settle them. We do a mix of bouncing on a trampoline or cushions, seeing how many star jumps we can do in a minute, swinging in a blanket, being wrapped up tightly in a blanket and letting them wriggle out. Getting that last little burst of energy out. It seems counterintuitive but it works for my DC.

I know at the moment you feel completely out of control and at a loss with your daughter's behaviour but I think if you approach it assuming she has SEN and making adaptations for her, you'll find that the negative behaviours may lessen as she begins to feel more regulated. Imagine she has this constant sensory overload and is living in a fight or flight state which would account for her reactive behaviour currently. Keep pushing for a diagnosis though and definitely mention your concerns with the school SENCO - even if she is ok in school, they need to have the full picture so they can meet her needs fully there too and offer you advice.

Wishing you lots of luck, hang in there.

This strategy is very cruel and the fact some kids 'turn out' is really not a reason to use, it, and it will not work for many SEN children, and definitely if it's PDA.

Bless you, it sounds so tough!

Sorry if I sound ignorant, but if she can control herself that much at school how can she not control herself at home at all? I know people have said she's masking.. but I don't understand how a young child can totally control themselves that much. Do you think it's because she just knows what is expected and not allowed at school, but not enough discipline at home?

Could you try putting to her room every time she hits/says something rude/ misbehaves. And explain she's having calm down time because that behaviour is wrong, we do not hit. Or say X or do X. No long explanations, just that. Hold the door or keep putting her back if need be. Is there anything at all she can do in her room that's calming? Drawing, colouring, Lego, playing with dolls? Then some one on one time for a bit when little sister has gone to bed.

You only have to see on this thread how people react if you dare challenge modern-day parenting of SEN children.
If you try to discuss it, you get shot down and told
you know nothing.

The problem is that these parents are doing things to make life easy for them right now.
Low demand parenting means they don’t have to deal with the inevitable meltdowns when boundaries are put in place. Life becomes easier. Child coasts along. Great. For the short term. But these children soon grow up and become adults who can’t function in society because they aren’t used to having rules, being told no or being told to do something.

It begs the question why are we encouraging a parenting style that is going to fail people in the long-term?

This isn’t your fault and you didn’t ask for this. There is no way to “perfect parent” your way out of having a neurodivergent child.

i hope you find support soon.

OP please ignore stupid comments like this. Raising a child with ASD/ADHD is extremely challenging.
People with Neurotypical children haven't got a clue what it's like, I am appalled at some of these comments I've read.
Try speaking with the school nurse if you can. It was the school nurse who put my child on the pathway, the GP was useless.
In the meantime educate yourself as much as possible on autism. I found the more I learned the more things made sense and became easier.
You have my sympathy it's not easy.

We definitely have rules and boundaries in our low demand house!! It's just that we all follow them with mutual love and compassion. My DS is destined for the most independent life possible thanks to his high levels of emotional regulation only Brough about through our and his school's approach. It's very dismissive to say otherwise!

@icann if food is ‘wrong’ my DS won’t eat it. He doesn’t throw or dump it but I have had a spoon chucked across the room. He has expectations that I don’t know about, that means he’s anxious all the time. He has the same lunch every day, it’s taken me a long time and many years to figure it out.

Ive also wondered how the low demand style produces functional adults.

Demands are not just external, they're intrinsic too. Sometimes we set ourselves demands, like "oh I've got this to do list as long as my arm, appointments to make, AND I've got my boss asking me to sit in this noisy office which is a demand to suppress my sensory sensitivities, and prioritise this massive workload that needs to be done by Thursday. I need a wee, I'm hungry and I can feel my hair touching my face and it's prickling me."

A low demand approach as an adult would be putting off what you can put off, wearing sensory aids, and asking for support after explaining your needs so there is less of those demands on you, you can prioritise your needs, avoid overwhelming environments and remain much better regulated.

Kids need someone else to recognise a lot of this for them, and they don't have the level of emotional literacy to explain or identify what it is about them or their environment that is creating these demands. Sometimes they themselves create the demands but it conflicts with their other needs and so because they can't prioritise what has to be done this also needs to be externally guided.

He's actually really successful in his life so it worked out very well for him.

Try looking at getting her assessed for ADHD with ODD profile, sounds very much like it x

There is an evidence base. We are talking about differences in cognitive function.

Depends on who you ask. He was a nightmare before and as his sibling, I was fed up of being hit and every day being so hard. It worked very well for us all, including him.