I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

I’m so sorry you’re going through this, sounds incredibly hard when parenting is difficult at the best of times.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned but it sounds like your daughter may have Oppositional Defiant Disorder ‘Oppositional defiant disorder is listed in the DSM-5 under Disruptive, impulse-control, and conduct disorders and defined as "a pattern of angry/irritable mood, argumentative/defiant behaviour, or vindictiveness’ (or something along those lines). There will definitely online forums and support groups of parents who are facing similar challenges, I would go there for some next step advice.
Hang in there, it’s not your fault and it sounds like you’re doing a great job.

Also op, I'm not sure what the situation is with diagnosis for children but you can normally ask for private referrals through right to choose that are a fair bit quicker. Worth asking your GP about?

@icann yes the title was dramatic but the first line spoke volumes about how close to your limit you are to have written a title that dramatic. Sometimes my inner monologue fantasises about putting my kids in the bin 😂 we can all have moments of being dramatic and saying stuff we don't entirely mean. Parenting is frickin hard. And I'm saying that without a black eye!!

Well my brother was like this at a similar age and shame turned him around as he was embarrassed that people he looked up to would be told about what he'd done.

We had this but it peaked at a later age (7 or so) and we only have the one.

Things that helped (eventually):

1. Getting an ADHD/ASD assessment. We had to pay privately but you could try Caudwell Children's if you could get there (they do free assessments) or ask the GP about Choose & Book.
2. Play therapy. Found someone suitable on the Owl Centre website. Had to pay. However, sometimes schools can refer.
3. NVR training (for us). Had to pay (can you see the pattern here...) but much cheaper than psychologist (useless as DD couldn't engage). But NVR guy was great. Yvonne Newbold on Facebook has good free resources.
4. Telling school what was happening. They were supportive.
5. The paediatrician at the ADOS (autism assessment) prescribed melatonin, which changed our lives. V common for ADHD and ASD DC to have sleeping difficulties. GP has prescribed it since then, but has to have the say so of a paediatrician first in UK (or possibly psychiatrist?)
6. The books 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child (Bernstein) and The Explosive Child (Greene).
7. We were referred to Social Services (Early Help) after an incident at holiday club and they helped us find local resources. Eventually we found the council offered some stuff. New Forest and Cygnet are specific courses for ADHD and ASD. We've never managed to get onto one, but they exist.
8. Online resources from the PDA Society (the PANDA approach) and a Facebook group for PDA parents.
9. Being careful who we disclosed our problems to. Most people haven't experienced these extreme behaviours and don't get it and can be dismissive or judgemental. The NVR counsellor was so awesome (he was ND himself). My mum and sister simply don't get it, but some friends and colleagues have been brilliant.

10. You will need an EHCP. You can apply to your local council for a needs' assessment yourself. You don't need school to do it for you. The IPSEA site has all the resources you need. In the meantime the website "Not fine in school" might have ideas/solidarity on the emotionally based school avoidance. If you Google "your local authority name" + "local offer" you may find some useful local services. Or a load of blather, but try it.

Finally, I've heard the charity Sibs can help siblings.

Keep talking to your DH. These problems are very tough on marriages.

DD is so so much better at 11!

Well my brother was like this at a similar age and shame turned him around as he was embarrassed that people he looked up to would be told about what he'd done.

Those were numbered but Mumsnet hates formatting, bah.

I really see what you’re saying here. I’d say it is about getting a balance though, in the sense that a totally overstimulated child will not be able to learn and a child who is always removed from the learning environment is not being supported to learn strategies to manage in that environment. And I think we need to consider the individual child’s window of tolerance.

Also I don’t think we live in an autism/ADHD- friendly world, for instance my work place is so loud/strip lighting/open plan/ information haphazardly all over the walls.
I believe there is research to show that, within an appropriate environment with the correct support, a ND workforce can be more productive than a NT one

Shame not very useful if child has little control of behaviour or reacting to upsetting stimuli. You do not want it to turn to self harm.

You are an adult. You simply cannot let a 5 year old physically abuse you and your younger child.

My son was like that at her age, he’s 13 now and although he can still have meltdowns and go for us, thankfully it only happens a couple of times a month now rather than several times a day. Also, there is usually a build up so we can be out of his way when it starts and I can stop it sometimes by distracting him with something he loves.

I’ve learned that he is a sponge, if I’m anxious, he’ll have more meltdowns, so as hard as it is, you have to try not to show any negative emotion around her.
It feels like it will be like this forever, it won’t.

He still doesn’t go to sleep early but he stays in his bedroom now so hardly ever disturbs us.
I self referred to SS at around the age of 7 but to be honest, they weren’t much help, although having a social worker can help when applying for DLA (which I hope you’ve applied for).

I would strongly encourage OP to consider biological factors before leaping to the conclusion of neurodiversity.

Her child isn’t eating a healthy diet. She’s likely low in iron and vitamin D, and probably other key minerals as well. These are proven to affect emotional regulation and behaviour. This is the first thing I would be addressing. ADHD is strongly linked to anaemia, as are aggressive behaviours.

It’s a real shame nobody ever considers this before instantly wanting an ND assessment.

It's to much OP for her to achieve all at once when her behaviour is this bad. So she's in the trap of never achieving and giving up. Make the goal smaller. Set just ' use kind hands/ no hitting ' for 1 day and then small treat. Make it easier to reach the goal and the goal less far fetched for her 5 yr old brain to comprehend. Then build it up slooowly.

Do this in tandem with the discipline so certain big things i.e. hitting sister and throwing / kicking have consequences, let the other stuff go until this bigger stuff is sorted so forget the please and thank yous / speak kindly etc for now, sort the physical out first.

Consequences being a thinking step where you explain to her calmly one day prior to you two having to use it what's its for ' for thinking about actions and to let her feel her emotions in a safe place ' so when it's used she may refuse and you may have to physically take her there but she knows what this place is for and why. No just a random step which will cause her more agro.

Plenty of cuddles throughout rhe day and positive reaffirmation on things she done right ,even little things so she wants more of that reaction from mummy. You need to find a way to conceal your rage in front of her and find a method yourself to calm before going in and disciplining. It never works if your mad too.

OP are you sure switching the TV off just as an experiment wouldn't be the lesser of two evils for your 3 year old? If it turned out to help and led to less hitting then surely that would be a win.

It sounds like you're got some good things lined up to try.

From your first post the being out every day thing did stand out to me. Is it possible your 5 year old would be a bit calmer with more time at home even if she initially protested, perhaps with some good craft supplies? Again, for a period of time while you're experimenting (not her whole life!) might you all staying at home more be the lesser of two evils for your 3 year old to experience?

Was your brother disabled ?
Would you normally advocate for disabled children to be shamed?

What are you on. Slap a 5 year old because violence will sort the violent kid out is it? .... stupid thing to say

My dd is 8, it has taken years for me to get anywhere. School were reluctant to help, as were the doctors. My advice would be to keep pushing with both. Keep a diary of your child's behaviour, how you handled it and what the outcome was, if you can get any sneaky recordings, do that too. In my experience it is harder for girls to get a diagnosis of adhd/autism. I went round in circles trying to get anyone to take me serious because my daughter didn't show any signs of problems in school, apparently. The only things that have flagged up is that she is working well behind her peers, and gets frustrated easily.

Maybe she is over stimulated? Children on the spectrum usually lash out when they are home after a long day of school because they have spent all day holding it in, masking. Then they get in and explode because they feel safe. Like a bottle of coke after you've shook it.

I'm a sucker for routine, love it (I have autism and adhd) Keeps my head clear but that doesn't work for my daughter so I've had to loosen up and be a little more free range in my parenting.

It's a hard battle ahead, be persistent with the GP and school. Take some time for yourself too when you can. If you're stressed, she will be stressed.

He's neurodivergent.

I was responding to the OP about her situation...

Masking is real and is often talked about negatively (and undoubtedly has negative aspects), but I think some of what is called masking is just good habits of self-control. And if a person can learn to control themselves at school they can learn to control themselves at home.

Quite how to get that across, however, is a matter on which I am at a loss.

What I don't understand is why children can behave well at school but are awful at home? Surely some neuro problems would be evident all the time?

I haven't RTFT but my DD was like this at home. I almost crashed the car at one point because she launched herself across the backseat and attacked her sibling on the way home from school (someone had broken the rules at school and she'd bottled up the anger). It took a while to get an ASD diagnosis but once she did play therapy at school was a life saver it might be worth seeing if they can help. Then there is all the usual stuff. Making sure she has access to ear defenders/plugs, chewies, fidgets also helps. Constantly explaining what's happening with the day so there isn't anything unexpected if plans change explaining why and constant reassurance. Always at least one thing she eats on the plate and I try and keep things 'predictable' food wise. For example I've mostly given up with fresh fruits for her, dried and tinned are far more predictable in taste, look and feel. She's actually really improved, I think her behaviour peaked around 6.5ish. She still gets in furious tempers but she's definitely not as physically violent anymore and her diet has really improved. I can't help with the sleep though. I take asleep before midnight as a win!!!

I also think you need more passive methods of keeping the DC safe. E.g. you and DH take one each. Granny takes one. Separate activities at home (if possible).

When DD would really go for me, if she was safe I'd shut myself in the loo or my home office temporarily (realise not possible for you if 3 yo is there). Sometimes she'd forget what she was so angry about.

Sounds like mealtimes are a trigger. Let her eat separately maybe? Lunch box in another room?

Anything that works (however weird) - do more of it.

This is definitely worth checking actually. I know a child who’s behaviour was terrible and violent until he was diagnosed with quite severe hearing loss.

Funny that NICE hasn't identified this🤔