I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

@icann

This sounds so frightening and distressing for all of you.

I'm wondering whether she could be referred to Great Ormond Street.

https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/wards-and-departments/departments/clinical-specialties/department-child-and-adolescent-mental-health-dcamh/

Low demand (in my experience) means that the child is less stimulated, more emotionally regulated and therefore better able to use their words and learn how to get to a place of feeling calm. These are the skills we need to develop to be able to manage demands one day.

There seem to be so many cases like this now, I wonder what on earth is causing it, something must be. I second PP who recommended a child psychiatrist.

There's a lot of assumptions there. I am in the minority in that I'm a person with autism who is in full time employment. That's without even considering PDA (which I don't have) which adds an extra layer of difficulty. If someone reaches the clinical threshold for a PDA diagnosis then I suspect that interacting with any person likely to request something of them is going to be very difficult and the barriers to employment will be significant. That's no reason not to do what is needed to get that person through their childhood if there are few choices available.

Yes I agree this needs to be on the SEN boards @MNHQ. Please get her on the list OP, sooner the better.

Hi Op,

My family is similar to yours. I have two - 8 year old son, 5 year old daughter.
My oldest son was diagnosed with asd, spd and demand avoidance at 4. Research pda and go on the pda society website.
He had melonin when he was younger to help with sleep and was weaned off at 7. He Sleeps much better now. Does she sleep well once she’s off or does she wake.

His violence was extreme at 5. Hitting, spitting, kicked, pushing, biting. I remember our psychologist saying that it’s like a perfect storm at that age and it would decrease.
And actually now he is 8 his violent behaviour definitely has, hugely.
That's not to say every day isn’t a huge challenge but I wanted to encourage you to have hope that violence can decrease with age.

I know how desperate you can feel. I often feel desperate on low days. It’s a cliche but please practise self care. And have some time with your husband doing something you enjoy even in fleeting moments you can manage.

Do you have any family who can take her out for a break? Thankfully my parents are two of his safe people and he will go with them. No one else though apart from me and my husband. He’s never been to school, as an ex teacher I knew he wouldn’t cope.

Thinking of you x

http://www.familylives.org.uk/

Possibly some help /advice here?

Fully understand that there are some children, likely with a chromosome syndrome that behave this way, every day, even on best days.
Loads of well meaning folks will give you suggestions - most you’ve already thought of that don’t help a jot.

It’s called “behavior that challenges” when trying to be polite.
There is a charity called “Challenging Behavior” they may have some resources.

If you cannot cope with your child, you can ask for your child to go into “care”. SW may not agree, but if you can’t cope and your other child being harmed/abused. You can do this as a last resort.

There are also residential schools - EICP but it will take years and legal battles.

No judgement from me.

It just seems like it could be ineffective if it means they have virtually no prospect of learning to adapt to adult life. In an ideal world nobody would have to but social care is in crisis as it is, with the sheer number of people who need care because they’re unable to live an independent life in society.

Thats just Great Ormond ,s Street version of CAMHS which all Local authorities should have ,how much they can help is questionable.

Ultimately I would live separately to DP and take 1 child each, before I would put my child into care. It’s an absolute last resort and there are still things to try here.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272735821001239

The SEN board has 1/20th the amount of traffic than here though, and often gets extremely few replies. Not read the full thread but if OP has not requested, dont think it's OK to just move a thread like that.

Where?

Seriously, where?

I am not unsympathetic in the slightest but you’re having a child’s reaction to the OPs post. An adult response recognises that sometimes, in some cases, you can only do so much.

Well she does sleep. For 7.5/ 8.5 hrs. Your post is contradictory.

I would cut out all the junk food that is high in sugar or colours. Try elimination. My friend's son was like this with anything orange, even naturally so! Cut out anything that could be having an effect and see what happens.

Real consequences too. No tv/ treats when behaviour is bad. Stick to it.

Childproof her room, put her to bed and ignore her if she doesn't go to sleep. No snacks, only water in a water bottle. Ignore bad behaviour, respond to good behaviour.

This will also mean you can sit together in an evening. She will create for a few nights but you need to ignore her. Perhaps put a camera up without her knowing so you can reassure yourselves that she is safe.

Could she have a hearing problem

Unhelpful ,residential school, s coat £££££,s the Ops child is five and doesn't yet have a diagnosis,they tend to take the most complex of children when all other alternatives have been explored and failed I wouldn't judge a parent either but to suggest it at this stage is flippant at best

"All she wants to eat is junk. Ice lollies, chocolate, crisps..I don't ban these things. We have a fairly typical diet."

Then you say you've cut all the junk.?

Very surprised to see people working in education saying that there's no robust evidence for masking as a sign of neurodivergence. It's right there in the NICE guidelines as a sign of autism, particularly in girls with average or above average cognitive ability, so someone must have found some good evidence for it somewhere.

Just going to clear up a few things

I will self refer to social services. I want both of my children here but I want the behaviour to change. Noone is leaving the house
Me and my husband are a team. We will not be splitting up and taking 1 child each. Never mind financially that's not a thing
I have bought the explosive child book on kindle for some late night reading.
I have binned the sticker chart.

I have booked an appointment with the gp at the sister practice to ours. She has a great reputation with children and that is on Wednesday. I'm going to video this behaviour.

I currently have a black eye, 5 bruises on my arms, multiple scratches on my hands and my face. My youngest has been bitten three times today and kicked and hit.
I do not favour the 3 year old. I feel sorry for her and bloody helpless. My husband is going to do the 3 years old bedtime for a little while and I'll do the 5 year olds. Now as counter productive as this is I'm going to put the 3 year olds bed in with me and my husband. We can lock our door from the inside and she needs the sleep. If the 5 year old doesn't want to sleep I've realised I'm limited In what I can do. But I can't let her continue her going into her bedroom and waking her up anymore. It's not fair.

This is great advice. We have ADHD in the family. Diagnosis was less than £2000 privately
for our then 6 year old. If it is at all
possible I’d recommend a loan for
this.

Reward charts won’t work. It isn’t you or your parenting. It isn’t what she is eating.

ADHD meds for daytime, melatonin for bedtime, and connecting with local SEN parent groups are your best 3 goals. you are not alone. Push push push for diagnosis and push push push for the support you need. Go to GP first.

good luck OP xx

I really empathise with how you’re feeling.

from my experience I have learnt that connection is everything, connection to her main caregivers particularly. And with this horrible behaviour where you are really not “liking” her right now you could be kind of pulling away. And maybe what’s needed is to kind of lean in to the shitty behaviour. For example when my daughter is overwhelmed/dysregulated/angry and will pinch me repeatedly very hard, I used to get cross/discipline/try to get away from her or whatever but now I will get on her level and try to go for a hug/squeeze/calm words. Co-regulation. I do end up with some bad bruises but I can tell this is what she needs and it’s not really her rational brain that’s in control when she’s like that anyway. She kind of comes out of the angry fog eventually. Doesn’t always work straight away and on bad days I lose my temper sometimes!

if she goes for her toddler sister though I block/firm no/separate her etc. of course though.

I’m no expert but this is just my advice from my experience.