I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

Her diet? She doesn't have fizzy drinks. She occasionally has chocolate.

Keep a food diary - fish finger and squash were an issue for DD1 - it was some orange colorant - it was obvious though she had it and be bouncing off the wall.
But there may be some common not obvious cause.

Being outside calmed one of mine - just being outside in trees - lucky had garden with that. But working out triggers for that child - one of mine needed count down for nearly everything even routine stuff.

The violence is the worry though - how much control is there with that - is it a loss of control ie they need to be away from other in safe location or there is some control and discipline and clear boundaries will have an effect - working out which is bloody hard though. Is this being seen in school at all?

The wait list and school flip flopping of there are issues or not is frustrating - DD1 is 19 and only just getting though system.

Sleep - it's hard still trying to crack that TBH - baths, weight blankets lavender warm milk all at times have helped but often not really.

https://camhs.rdash.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/DP8668-Sleep-information-for-parents-of-children-with-ADHD-leaflet-01.21.pdf

https://www.adhdcentre.co.uk/children-and-adhd-overcoming-their-sleep-challenges/

You'll find that therapists, CPs, EPs and OTs all have differing views. Many I work with are horrified at such little understanding of attachment disorder and early childhood trauma is sometimes and they might say often, being mistaken for ND

I think the answer to that depends on how independently your DC will be able to live, and we don't know that for our DS yet. I think supporting him to take responsibility for himself instead of using a system of bribes and forced compliance will enable him to be the most independent he can be. For example, he knows that certain things are wrong because they are unsafe or hurt people or are illegal, so he doesn't do them. Now he's older, he's much better at following rules and regulating his emotions than he was. In terms of dealing with demanding bosses etc., I can't see that happening, but we are teaching him how to manage himself and walk away rather than reacting in a moment of anger that could have lifelong consequences. So yes I do think a low demand approach will prepare him for adulthood much better than a.cooercive model (which he wouldn't follow anyway)

Trying to transition from being an autistic child to being an autistic adult is always going to be challenging. I still face challenges daily and I am in my 30's. If my family had used some of the advice given in this thread I may well not have made it to adulthood at all. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to get through as a family.

Really sounds like severe ADHD OP
My cousin was like this as a child. Really really difficult. Is nice now as an adult but gave his parents hell. ADHD wasn’t a known thing then but looking back now that’s clearly what it was and is. He still ‘different’ in many ways now and very hyper but is incredibly successful in love and life and money.
You need to start research (a lot of research) on adhd and ways to manage your daughter. Your life sounds awfully stressful and I do feel for you but you can’t just not ‘want’ your 5 year old. Doesn’t work like that. She is your daughter and realistically you are going to be with her long term - weather you want to or not.
You have a long hard journey ahead but there is help. There are strategies. Her brain works differently from you and I. because of this she won’t be able to sleep at a normal time. She won’t be able to control her impulsive actions. She feels emotions like anger 10x more than you do. She might not be able to follow instructions well. Normal behaviour methods may not work.
She might refuse school becuse it’s incredibly stressful to have to mask and hold it all in for 6 hours and when she gets out she explodes and you the Brunt.
There is so much to ADHD to learn and when you do, you might find you understand your daughter much better.

Low demand doesn’t mean no boundaries, expectations and so on. We have high expectations of behaviour. But we do make adjustments that we probably wouldn’t make for an NT child. And there are natural consequences and lots of praise. It does not result in badly behaved older children or adults, quite the reverse. It is hard to explain in a few sentences but there is a lot of research and guidance about it , and the recommended approach from all of the CAMHS and paediatrician involved in her care.

I am a Social Worker and we have also learnt from Dan Hughes’ PACE model - Playfulness, Acceptance, Curiosity, Empathy - it is for children with attachments issues who have experienced trauma, but IME, many of the tools are also helpful for ND children.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/485444920920782/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

This woman really helped me. We've implemented a lot of her strategies, alongside those in the books 'calmer happier easier parenting', 'the explosive child' and 'how to talk so little kids will listen'. We completely cut out screen time and watched for any cues of getting overstimulated. Instant cut off when that happened. Worked hard on natural consequences, descriptive praise, reflective thinking on where behaviour could have been better or was very good and really tight boundaries. My message from after reading these things was that we're a team, I'm here to help, we can get through this together, you don't need to battle me, I'm not your enemy. I built trust and we worked together on how to handle anger in an acceptable way. Did lots of think throughs on how to calm your body when feelings take over. It amazed me how much guilt he was feeling about his anger even at 3. He was really hating on himself. I switched the dialogue. Praised everything I could, picked anything and everything that was good about him and made it my job to notice it out loud.

We've also been working on how to say 'I NEED ATTENTION' rather than demanding attention though violence and otherwise demonstrative behaviour. Taught both kids that they can always yell 'mum I need help with name' rather than them trying to handle each others behaviours if it gets too much.

By no means perfect, but so so much better than we were 2 years ago (started at 3, now 5.5). Also worked closely with the SENCO at school and nursery who added to our ideas for calming activities for him and how to notice when he needs calm VS when he needs to expel energy.

I really really hope you find some help and support and are able to turn it around. It's been so hard but he's gone from being someone I really detested parenting to one of my fave people on the planet. His brain is definitely wired differently to mine but that can be completely wonderful.

OP you should post this on the SEN Board. Only read page 1 and it’s bloody obvious many of those posting do not have ND children.

No, I mean the low demand approach, what happens when a manager or colleague makes a ‘demand’ of you?

These sound like distressed behaviours, OP, tough for all of you including her. If so, she's not choosing to be difficult, she is in a state of overwhelm and communicating that in the only way she can once she has become emotionally dysregulated. If so, she needs you to modify her environment, reducing her stressors, so she can remain calmer. Which may constrain aspects of your family life, but keep everyone calmer and safer. Yvonne Newbold is a good shout. Try and invest in your relationship with her and avoid treating her punitively. It will erode trust between you and make things worse.

If you can afford a couple of sessions with a child psychologist with a neurodevelopmental specialism to discuss behaviour strategies it may be money well spent. Or have a look at the local authority local offer website for details of resources for parents of neurodivergent children (or children on a neurodevelopmental assessment pathway). There may be videos and face to face sessions covering things like sleep and behaviour.

There are qualitative differences between the behaviours resulting from early trauma and attachment difficulties and from neurodevelopmental conditions (for want of a better term). If you are interested, look up the ‘Coventry Grid’. Of course there will be some people who are neurodivergent and also have experienced attachment trauma, which is where things get complicated.

🫂, you poor soul, I can feel your pain and helplessness. I have no advice for you. You seem like your trying your very best.
Record your daughters behaviour so gp can see how extreme your dd's actions are.
I'm sorry, I have no other advice for you but am sending you a handhold and a hug ❤️ 💗

I feel your pain, OP. You say the GP doesn't want to know.... that's not acceptable. I suggest you request appointments with different GP's in your practice until you find one that really has something to offer you and your 5 year old. Obviously she needs sleep, you need her to sleep.... that's a starting point

This has probably already been answered, but I buy melatonin for me and my daughter from the Piping Rock website.

Haven’t rtft yet but try and keep a log, we use them in schools to identify triggers.
it’s not for anyone to read (unless you want them to) so don’t worry about how it looks if you need to write down that you’ve shouted at her.

so you would write down

• what she was doing before the incident
• what the environment was like (maybe tv on/at a loud Park etc)
• the behaviour (hitting, shouting)
• the consequence (even if it’s just that you ignore her)

For example we have children who struggle with noise, children that struggle with sharing, children that struggle with transition (so even though they are going to do something they enjoy the physical act of changing over sets them off)

I think you are right about PACE and ND children.

I don't know if this is helpful but I was exactly like this as a child. It was the 80s/90s so no diagnoses or support. It lasted until I was about 14 and then I kind of grew out of it. I have a good relationship with my parents and sibling now.

Also try giving her her own little safe space, maybe a blanket thrown over a clothes horse that she can go into with a favourite teddy or toy.
it may not work but it’s just an idea, some great ideas from what I have read so far.
I hope you are able to get some support and respite, it sounds really tough x

Make sure it is the disabilities team. In some areas, in practice, they don't take referrals relating to (suspected) autism.

Or we could follow the science...

What the hell is wrong with you!
We arectalking about a FIVE year old child!

I really feel for your family here. I’ve taught the sibling in these circumstances a few times, and it just seems awful for them.

One thing a family I worked with used to do re bedtimes was use a very high stair gate across their eldest’s door and leave him to it. He had a low stimulation bedroom with soothing lights etc and eventually just started going to sleep. They then used to open the gates when they went to bed so he could use the loo etc, but transfer their youngest into their bed so they could keep him safe if his older brother woke up.

They eventually paid privately for a behaviour specialist (not sure exactly who they were - ed psych, SEND teacher or similar maybe?) to come into their home like Supernanny and suggest techniques to help. By the time the eldest left primary he was so much better, but the family had to maintain rock solid boundaries all the time.

Play therapy helped the youngest enormously too, plus the dad being absolutely robust in his protection (mum not physically strong enough once older child was 6/7).

Well done OP for being so proactive in trying to protect your 3yo. You sound like you’re doing your absolute best.

I'm going to give a few tips that helped me with my high needs some before diagnosis. I also think you should look at PDA. However, she IS communicating, she just doesn't know how to do it properly. So it's act now, think later. This is common in autistic children. I would definitely get her a pair of ear defenders as that was a huge help for my son, avoided overstimulation and the pressure was comforting. There is a brand called Kidz available on Amazon. Not expensive.

I'd also find her a fidget or some sort of textured toy that she can hold. My son loved the ears of a tigger soft toy. It was immediately calming. Like others have said, we also went out a lot but I did woods/fields and a lot of running rather than having issue that come with other children/parks/soft play. She does sound like she's masking at school so it will be helpful for her to be in a more structured environment. Make an appointment with the SENCO. I'd also apply for DLA now. You can do it without a diagnosis and there are organisations that can help with the very long form. I really really empathise. It does change, things do get better. It's time and patience. If 3 yo is at nursery I'd speak to them too. You want to have as many people around you that can support. My now 13 yo is a different child

Is it possible admins can move it? If the OP wants it to be there? Seem to remember there's something about double threads which isn't okay? Or maybe it's threads about threads and I'm confused