I don't want my 5 year old anymore

[icann]

I'm using a throwaway. Judge me all you want but I need some serious advice

I have 2 children..one who is 5 and who just gone 3.
My 5 year old is going into year 1..strongly suspected ADHD or autism. But the channels of diagnosis move slow. I'm sure it will crop up but no I cannot afford private

Right where to start. She's aggressive. I'm covered in cuts and bruises and scratches. My 3 year old is the same. She attacks her or me for the slightest infraction. Hitting, biting, screaming. The abuse she gives me. She laughs while she's doing it like it's funny. It's not. My 3 year old is terrified of her.

She doesn't listen. Does what the hell she wants. Nothing I say works. Nothing I say sinks in.

She doesn't sleep. She's awake till half 11 plus most nights. We've had the same bedtime routine since she was like a baby. Nothing works. Story, bath. Doesn't sleep. Just awake. Screaming abuse and hitting me and kicking me.

Speaks to me like I'm a slave. Her attitude stinks.

Refuses to go to school. God knows how ill get her there next week. Every morning is a battle. I've tried having a routine, getting her uniform sorted. Nothing works.

My 3 year old is losing all the time. Days out ruined. Can't watch her programme, can't play with her toys, can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. I watch them both like a hawk but inevitably my 3 year old comes out worse.

I don't want to do this. I don't see why I should. Yes she's my daughter but unconditional love only goes so far. I feel like scooping my 3 year old up and going as far away as possible. Dad is on the scene but works 5 days a week. 10 to 12 hour days. He has the same behaviour..

I've got a black eye and my daughter is currently sat with another bite mark from her sister. What's she going to be like at 8? Or 10? Or 14? The gp put her on a waiting list. The wait in my area is up to 4 years. I can't do this. I am.so broken and I have a 3 year old to think of.

Please help

If you read my other replies you’ll see I’ve never said they just hand it out to anyone who asks. You DO have to fight for it, and not everyone gets it. I’m sorry that’s been your experience.

So sorry OP. Another vote for NVR. Things are so much calmer.

I know it's like banging your head against a wall ,right back at you with 🍷

The masking narrative has grown wheels and taken off over the last 10 years of so, I agree there is little robust evidence for it. Ive been working with children for nearly 30 years.

It's most peoples experience

I am autistic and while I was not this bad or violent, I had similar moments as a kid. I wasn’t disciplined enough and I feel like it messed me up as a teen a bit, I was spoilt. I dropped out of school at fifteen because I moved around a lot and I struggle with new things. I learned as I got in my twenties that a rigid routine is something that helps me.

sounds like she is OK at school. Is there anything at home that triggers her? Maybe the routine of school- knowing what’s going to happen everyday- and the firmness of the teachers is good. Maybe you could write her a list of what’s going to happen every week (within reason, we all know things crop up), this might help her feel some sense of control. Routines are good at home too for those who are autistic. Dinner at the same time everyday, baths on the same days. If she is bad or being violent, you need to take a moment and send her to her bedroom for half an hour. Even if you’re holding the door, make sure she stays there. No screaming and shouting at her. Bottle of water if necessary but nothing glass. The meltdown will likely wear off and she will sleep. When she has calmed maybe you and her can sit alone and talk about it. You can tell her mum and dad don’t like when you hit, it’s cruel and very wrong. Cry if you want to- it may frighten her that you’re so upset and stop her behaviour.

for other poster saying social services will take your other child off you if you say you’re not coping with your older one, they’re talking rubbish. SS do everything they can before taking a child away from its mother and work with the family for a long time, and the average age of adoption is a lot older now. Don’t be scared to reach out to SS.

I agree with you about the importance of boundaries and expectations. I think for me the helpful shift was about focusing on how to help the child to develop the skills to be able to manage a situation; that punishments/consequences don’t actually help a child to learn how to manage the situation next time. I think some NT kids pick up the emotionak regulation skills more easily; with ND kids they need more support to develop those skills. Also the problem with punishments is that they can leave the child feeling ashamed. So I tend to have a boundary/expectation and there is a consequence if it hasn’t been met, but I would frame this more about my kid not being ready yet/not having the skills yet to be able to do a certain thing.

I think Dr Becky gives an example of a manager who punishes us for something at work vs a manager who expresses an expectation and thinks with us about the support we need to be able to meet it; it’s a bit like that.

And you haven’t deigned to tell the OP what this ‘fight’ looks like or how long it takes.

The child is five. The poster you are replying to has a child who is 14, with extensive and diagnosed complex needs, and he has only just been granted respite twice a month.

How comforting 😂 ‘in nearly ten years you’ll have a break twice a month.’

Self refer to social services. You'll be allocated a social worker for children with disabilities and they will push for everything you need. All NHS depts and support. Best thing we ever did. Good luck.

Ps. Don't be scared because it's SS. People have a very skewed view that it all relates to them wanting to take children away. Absolutely no way. The disabilities team are ENTIRELY different to safeguarding team.

I think you'll notice I didnt use the word punishments. Restorative justice approaches and consequences around practical issues are very well used for ND clients and children and children in particular can learn managable expectations as I said.

I am so sorry that you are going through this. Your little girl sounds like she has some lovely qualities, alongside the very challenging behaviour. Encouraging her interests as much as possible - such as the swimming - will help.

A few things: have you asked the GP/health visitor what provision is available for families on the waiting list? Sometimes there are support services for families.

Have you asked for a CAMHS referral?

Could you be assigned a social worker? Social services can support you with things like respite care, equipment etc. Barnardo’s can also supply respite care.

Can you contact the national autistic society? They should be able to point you in the direction of some support services that can help, or can offer advice themselves?

Do talk to school who can also signpost.

Consider asking GP for some counselling for you.

Re the TV, I wonder if it being on a lot is making your daughter overstimulated. Does she have a low impact environment at home that is calm where she can go to decompress? Can you create that in her room for her? Maybe it can be a project you do together, if she likes crafts.

Does she like music? Can you do a family disco to try and get some of her energy out before bedtime? Ask GP about melatonin for sleep.

It’s so, so tough but things can get better, I promise. Do not lose hope. If you ever get to a stage where you feel you might hurt yourself or your child then please seek help. There are people who can support you through this. Sending you all my good thoughts x

Make a self referral to your local child services for early intervention.
They can teach you some strategies to help you pr point you in the right direction for support services.. Google family support services.

You just need support.

One of your children needs parenting in a way that you have to figure out, but there should be professionals on hand to help advise with DDs additional needs and how to keep everyone happy.

You're doing your best and understandably fed up.

We all have days that were fed up and don't feel we can do it anymore.

What you are going through is hard, and I think you need to recognise that, but also that things can, and likely will improve....and so much better you're here venting than bottling it all up.

For me I think of it a bit like when I’m at work and tired and a bit pissed off, I work quite hard to be pleasant and polite (probably knowing that I can’t tell someone who is talking too loudly to shut the F up, as I’d be fired!). Then I hold it in at home with my kids, but when it’s just me and my DH at the end of the day I can be REALLY grumpy with him!!! Luckily I’ve got better at naming my grumpiness and telling him it’s not about him! It comes out when I feel safe and relaxed and when I’m with someone who I know loves me

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. It must be horrendous. My son was difficult with biting, hitting and throwing things but completely changed when he started going to school. Multiple parents from nursery went to the school and said how concerned they were that my son was going to the same school as their children! When he started to hit or be violent, I used to get a blanket and wrap it around him to restrain him and speak to him the same way I would if he was upset and crying.

I watched a lot of Supernanny and experimented with different discipline techniques. We had a chart to record his behaviour and this was connected to rewards. We limited screen time to almost nothing. We started karate lessons where he could use his anger on punchbags. We did then pay a private therapist to do 6 sessions of once a week therapy which helped so much. We got a discount as we booked them as a block. It was hard to get the money but my parents helped out. His school have been amazing as well.

Now he is the most well behaved child ever. He still shows traits of ASD which we have to deal with but they aren’t violence related.

I’m a teacher too so have some knowledge of the help available.
If you haven’t already try:

Speaking to your SENDCo at school as asking what they advise. They can direct you towards their family liaison officer who can support and how to get in touch with social services. Please don’t fear social services- they can put you in touch with services who can support. They can only help if you give them consent to but there may be services in your area that can help with your daughter’s behaviour.

Harass your GP and keep on asking social services for help. Explain that you cannot cope and you worry about the psychological impact on you and your younger child. If you harass and are very insistent, often you get further with GPs.

Lastly, I’d do everything you can to get her into school. When she’s at school, school need to deal with her behaviour and if the staff see how bad it is, they’re most likely to make referrals to help you. Also, you get some much needed space from her.

xo

Your answers aren't helpful and you're coming from a place of zero understanding for OP. Of course you'd prefer your 3 year old if your 5 year old's behaviour was nightmarish.

I would highly recommend a low demand approach and looking at the PDA Society website. They are fantastic. PDA is an autistic profile where your nervous system is just different. I am the same. Once we changed how we parented our son and got him in the right special school, he's so happy in himself and is a wonderful boy. He couldn't cope in mainstream school and was very dysregulated a lot of the time. Doing things like sending him to his room or making him get dressed just made everything so much worse. Now we do lots of compromising, talking things through, and giving choices. It's a radically different way to approach parenting but I actually think a lot of children would benefit from the approach. We treat him like a person with autonomy within the world while keeping a framework in place based on safe / unsafe behaviours.

I have no advice other than to switch the tv off as the background stimulation will be very high. 3 year old doesn’t need it either - maybe one programme per day. And some of those goals are a bit vague for a 5 year old child who may be ND and very literal. I’d change to ‘say thankyou when mummy or daddy give me something ‘. Speak kindly is nebulous and covers too much. Something more specific eg I do not throw toys . I do not hit my sister. I say Thankyou for my breakfast. It’s breaking it down a bit . I feel for you .

Just out of interest what happens with a low demand approach when they become adults?

So even though Clinical Psychologists and EP’s and OT’s see evidence of children masking you don’t believe it exists? I can assure you my child was terrified of many teachers at school. To the point where he would wet himself instead of ask to use the toilet during lesson time. Just because it didn’t look the same as some other children that are terrified doesn’t mean he wasn’t!

It must be utter Hell.

I cannot begin to imagine how awful this must be, to be controlled by a violent 5 yr old.

My son as a teenager went through some tricky times, and it was very difficult.
I had no help from anyone, and social services when I asked for help said ''he's not bad enough''

At least you are lucky enough to have your husband there, whom you say is a good man. He can at least give the little one some respite from the onslaught.

If it becomes really intolerable, so much so that you absolutely cannot cope, go to the GP and say that you need to get her put into ''care'' - maybe then they will listen to you then , if you are at the end of your endurance.

Maybe medication will take the edge off her aggression..none of you should be injured by these outbursts.

First OP I want to say I absolutely don't know the answer... I'm not an expert, only a mum. I feel awful for you and your family that you are going through this. I truly believe that this will pass and she will turn out to be a brilliant human being, but it's a horrible time. I don't think it's fair on you to be picking at your food and TV routine. I am sure you have covered all those bases. And I don't think reward charts work either, but that's only my opinion.

I'd only suggest more (and exhausting) physical exercise... maybe an outdoor/forest camp/school of some kind. I know my son is very oppositional if he hasn't used every ounce of energy in his body. That, and separating the children as much as possible: call on all family members/friends who will take her and set up a rota for weekends amd holidays, plus tag team with your husband. This will pass but for a couple of years your youngest needs space,and you need to not be despairing about trying to keep her safe.

The very best of luck with this. X

I'm so scared nursery will see the marks she's left on her and report us

Any half decent establishment is duty bound to act on safeguarding.

Ignore all the neurotypical advice of rewards/punishments and consequences. Ignore everything you think about parenting or what you wanted to parent like. Right now you guys are in crisis and you all need space and time to learn and move out of this. Lots of great advice already given for PDA- I agree. I would start by thinking about the worst parts of the day and the worst things that set it off- the majority of your day is shit right now but there will be some parts which are worse. Focus on this first, think of her behaviour as a panic attack not being naughty. I would look at: pda society strategies and understanding, school and masking, if you Instagram look up at peace parents.

Masking is definitely a thing, if you listen to actual autistic adults who have lived experience of it. Just because some doctor or neurotypical person doesn't believe in it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I would definitely have a look for some local charities near you that can help, the one near me is run by parents who have been in similar situations with their own children which I think helps.