Parents and play date politics (Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP)

[Okeydokedeva]

Got a strong willed, sweet but shy 4yr old ds. He can make some wonderful spontaneous friendships but struggles in large groups. He has a good friend at nursery and she and he has a lovely friendship. Every day he tells me stories and dreams about her. His little face melts.

the mum of the girl is heavily pregnant. She is local and has lots of friends I think. We don’t have much in common beyond the kids. We organised a play date at mine and it was clear to all of us how well they got on. Since then she has made lots of excuses and I feel a bit of a nag/Wally. Eventually she messaged me saying I was ‘overwhelming’ and that she had said she was pregnant and not making plans. I’ve tried to explain to my boy that his friends mum is tired etc. he does keep asking. It sucks. I feel really sad and ashamed. I feel like I am no good at this making friends with strangers thing. But most of all I feel so sad for him as this is his fave friend by far and it’s been going on three months now like this.

any advice????

I think she’s most likely dropped hints which OP hasn’t picked up on and so has had to be a bit more clear/firm.

If the other mum has posted on here, we would have all told her to give a similar response and to be honest about feeling overwhelmed by it.

Country comparison tool (hofstede-insights.com)

This is a fun tool to play with. Of course, it is only generalisations people are individuals everywhere, but it is weird how accurate it feels sometimes. And useful actually.

Yes, good point.

The word crush is perfectly ok in international English language, just the English people are weird about it and are choosing to get offended.

It is an interesting situation, when English language is getting out of English people's hands. Still, when you are living in their territory, you need to be aware of their intriguing ways of using it.

I’m ND so I struggle with the complexities of English people too…I am English. But yes must meet up means will never happen and they are lying, a lot of my cousins say it to me.

If on the other hand someone like me said it to you I would honestly mean it and attempt to do it.

And yes finding out someone’s name is honestly tough too, I had a faux pas I think a few weeks ago. My neighbour of 5years I had to speak to for the first time. At the end I said bye I’m ADDNAME and I think she then thought she was forced to tell me hers. She will probably never speak to me again because of it.

I live in a different part of England to where I’m from and I’ve been here 20years no friends as of yet as I don’t say or do the right things. I’m far more open, friendly and blunt tbh and people don’t like it. I’ll say hello for example to my neighbours whereas they’d rather blank me.

I was sympathetic until the thread turned xenophobic.

That's exactly what I thought, rather strange terminology for children that age, no wonder the mother has run miles.

Culturally English people are generally reserved and quite private, this can vary regionally but It isn’t always meanness. If she is heavily pregnant she probably is exhausted so maybe just leave it for a bit.

@Tbry24 "And yes finding out someone’s name is honestly tough too, I had a faux pas I think a few weeks ago. My neighbour of 5years I had to speak to for the first time. At the end I said bye I’m ADDNAME and I think she then thought she was forced to tell me hers. She will probably never speak to me again because of it."

As a non-ND person what you did sounds absolutely fine in that context!

Crush? I'm sorry, I am the most sociable person in the world, but I would find that off putting. Sorry.

Your child doesn't have a "mutual crush" with another child. They have a friend. Perhaps this is what the other mother has taken exception to? Why does the friendship need to be classed as a crush? It seems the mum has been very clear in setting out her boundaries and communicated that she finds your level of messaging intrusive so I'd give her the space she's requested.

Based purely on your responses here you come across as a bit full on and sensitive to anything you see as rejection or criticism, which causes you to over react. Nobody has used the words "paedo" etc apart from you.
I appreciate that while your English is excellent there may be some nuances around words that as a non native speaker you may not get and you have to understand that what is fine in your own country is not seen the same way here.
Whatever the case the childs Mum has been very clear that she finds you a bit much, thats ok, we cant all be everyones cup of tea and it might be more about her than you. At least she has been honest and not just ignored or avoided you.
Your children play together at Nursery, which is nice and at 4 its enough.
You will also need to learn to chill out a bit about your childs friendships as you navigate school

OP, I get it. I'm British but married to a Slav and a lot of the points you've made are the same as what he's said. And visiting his country for many years I know the culture differences. It's taken a long time to accept some of those myself! I always know where I stand with DH though, he tells me the truth and on the few occasions he has told a little lie, he's rubbish at it!
We're planning on moving to his country and I worry about feeling isolated too. People are friendly but will they be a 'friend'? If I met someone as keen to connect as you I'd be very grateful. I hope it gets easier for you and your child when he goes into primary school.

If you have no problem maintaining friendships outside your son’s friends then why are you assuming it is something to do with you? It could be this mum and the previous ones are keeping at arms length due to the intensity of your son? That sounds harsh but I don’t mean it to be.

My DS is a very kind, popular, sweet boy who will make friends with anyone. A real people person. But that has meant that some children, over the years, have grown very attached to him in quite an intense way. It is usually kids who struggle to make friends generally and so when someone like my DS comes along who is kind and open to anyone and everyone, they sort of just latch on.

But my DS will not be unkind and when he was very young, was not able to articulate that he needs a little space. He would struggle with certain friends who would monopolise him.

There was one little girl who he used to beg me to decline play dates. He liked her, but after her being stuck to him all day in school, really didn’t want to also see her outside of school.

So it could be just that? Maybe encourage your DS to broaden his friendships and try to not form such close attachments to any one person?

How comfortable people are with uncertainty is another thing.

The English/UK generally score extremely low on uncertainty avoidance - basically it means being happy with vagueness/muddling through. So the "lets meet up soon" and the polite back and forth doesn't bother them as much. Whereas people from former Yugoslavia for example score very highly on uncertainty avoidance - so there's a lot of "but just tell me now" or wanting to know if their kids are going to be friends. It can come across as more anxious or full on - just as the English can come across as standoffish but no-one is in the wrong as such.

Again this is a generalisation. But one that is often true.
Country comparison tool (hofstede-insights.com)

These are some of the bits I was thinking of (I found the whole book on Moodle although I don't know if that is entirely legal, I do own it as well):

"It is not considered entirely polite, for example, to ask someone directly ‘What do you do?’,... we English seem to have a perverse need to make social life difficult for ourselves, so etiquette requires us to find a more roundabout, indirect way of discovering what people do for a living. It can be most amusing to listen to the tortured and devious lengths to which English people will go to ascertain a new acquaintance’s profession without actually asking the forbidden question.

The guessing game, which is played at almost every middle-class social gathering where people are meeting each other for the first time, involves attempting to guess a person’s occupation from ‘clues’ in remarks made about other matters. A comment about traffic problems in the local area, for example, will elicit the response ‘Oh, yes, it’s a nightmare – and the rush hour is even worse: do you drive to work?’ The other person knows exactly what question is really intended, and will usually obligingly answer the unspoken enquiry as well as the spoken one, saying something like: ‘Yes, but I work at the hospital, so at least I don’t have to get into the town centre.’ The questioner is now allowed to make a direct guess: ‘Oh, the hospital – you’re a doctor, then?’"

Also:

"Some direct questions are more impolite than others. It is less rude, for example, to ask ‘Where do you live?’ than ‘What do you do?’, but even this relatively inoffensive question is much better phrased in a more indirect manner, such as ‘Do you live nearby?’, or even more obliquely ‘Have you come far?'"

Could you speak to the nursery teachers, ask them to suggest other kids to build friendships/have play dates with. Healthier all round to have a number of friendships, even when they need to be nurtured 1:1.

@Okeydokedeva I am not native English and I would find the use of the word "crush" for any friendship that my daughter has frankly disgusting.
Also the way you've been talking about English people is very racist. I am appalled at the way you think.

Yes. As many have pointed out, 'crush' is inappropriate here. It actually means 'infatuation', according to the standard dictionary of English (OED).

One connotation of a crush in this (English-English) sense is that it's mostly applicable to adolescents: it's a kind of immature, often (though not always) unreciprocated infatuation, generally (though again not always) unrequited. None of that makes sense of a pre-school child. Although you might make sense of extending the idea of a crush to adults, it still would carry with it a connotation of immaturity ... but to speak of a pre-school child having a crush is, indeed, creepy.

Why so? - Because of the particular sexual connotation the word has, no matter how unrequited the crush be. And sexual connotations regarding children are definitely to be avoided in contemporary English society. Slavic custom might allow such connotation (albeit largely jokingly in specific intent): @Okeydokedeva's response earlier about 'gay friendly' gives that game away. But in English, definitely a no-no.

That's about language intersections. But, of course, such intersections are indicative as well as definitive. Slavic culture is different in lots of ways from British. (One of my children married a half-Slav; I've seen a lot of this at first hand.)

@Okeydokedeva you just have to grit your teeth and try to learn: we're all different, and added to differences of personality are cultural differences. And, well, 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do'.

In this particular case, @Okeydokedeva, it's probably too late. You just came across as too pushy. You were too pushy, in fact; we English - most of us - see that from what you wrote. But you can learn, for your own sake as well as that of your children. Don't assume everyone is like you; don't assume your own built-in cultural norms are universal or necessarily best; look around and try to learn (yes, about use of language, too); try to adopt some of the cultural habits of those you live amongst (even if you see them as worse than your own). (Tricky!) Live a happy life.

Good luck.

@Okeydokedeva the fact that in the face of your rudeness the English people replying have generally been polite, pleasant, self deprecating and tried to be helpful says a lot about us I think.
Also I'm obviously English I have never ever come across anything about not asking someone's name have I been Englishing wrong???

Back off

Actually you're right re the differences between UK and America e.g.

An American mother moved to my street over lockdown with her French DH and her DD (6) and baby (just under a year old).

As she was new and local I kept seeing her out and about with her DC and asked her to go for coffees/walks/farmers markets sometimes when we were both free which we did a few times, it was really nice having a new acquaintance/friend/NDN. Her DH often liked to do his own thing (cars were his thing, repairing them) on the weekends but did do family time with them too. She joined a local group for ex-pat US moms and met up with them a few times. I also had a new NDN move in who'd recently had a baby who was a similar age to this woman's baby, I tried to get them to meet up but for whatever reason (covid?) this never happened, but they were both keen on it.

The American mom did confide in me 'it's a total minefield here with English mums how to mix and socialise, I don't find them friendly really but I do try to do playdates with them for Estelle's sake (her older DD) and I also try to do similar mum and baby groups for Yvette's sake (the baby) but find some mums can be friendly and others not. Eg if I try to suggest a coffee out, sometimes they look at me like I've suggested going out clubbing!' The American mom had also lived in Paris pre-DC (where she'd met her DH). American mom told me, back home we are fairly easy about meeting up, suggesting it, yes we have cliques but we are more direct in our talk to others and when it comes to suggesting a meet up/playdate, it's no big deal and is more casual than it seems over here. In fact playdates are encouraged a lot for social networks for kids. Clubs like soccer clubs (soccer moms) are popular for boys and yes we have pushy parents, cliquey groups and beauty pageant moms (pushy!) too. She also said 'it seems more community based in USA' - so everyone knows everyone in the area and you either socialise or don't, with your activities (e.g. judo, ballet, church (she said church seems more of a thing in USA then in UK) so there is some common ground.

What was also interesting is once I'd been out with DNephew and my family who was about 2.5 at the time and he'd cut his hand badly in a local park a short drive away, we'd returned to my house as it was nearest. We quickly knocked on the door to ask the US mom for help as he was screaming blue murder and crying and wouldn't stop, as she was training to be a midwife, but her mom who was over staying with her was a nurse (children's) who was either retired or not was with her and knew what to do. Immediately they were so kind, knew exactly what to do, helped out, looked him over, gave advice which saved an A&E trip (didn't fancy this over lockdown!), and the next time the family came over I invited the US mom in for a playdate/afternoon tea to say thanks. I'm not sure a lot of English mums would've reacted the same way.

Everyones obsessing over the use of the word crush and ignoring that fact that it is extremely, ridiculously common that people have always noticed things like this and said boyfriend and girlfriend about 2 little kids who seem to be very keen on each other.

Perhaps now some people might think it's inappropriate but that seems to be MN PCness to me because in real life I've never noticed any sign of that stopping!

My DS who is now 17 was like this, he still is an affable, very sociable and charismatic boy/young man, his Dad my DH is similar; I’m quite introverted so I find it quite exhausting to be available to people all the time, whether that was chit chat at the school gates, small talk with colleagues at work, neighbours etc. I had this scenario to some extent as when DS was 4 and in reception, a little boy was very keen to be his best friend, his only friend. It was mutual to a point but DS was good friends with quite a few children, the Mum was very pushy about them always being together but I found it overwhelming as I also had a newborn DD at the time, who had reflux, who never slept as a result, I was exhausted and couldn’t reciprocate or put as much energy into this friendship as she desired. She only had the one and seemed to have no empathy for my situation with newborn DD, she was just offended in the end and was very direct about it - she wasn’t from England but I don’t know if that is relevant. She did say in her own Mediterranean country people are so community orientated and they just aren’t here. I thought that wasn’t true in our area as it is quite bohemian and welcoming, everyone seems to be freelance and well paid and could got to the park after school and spend endless cash on park cafe cakes for their dC or ice cream and coffees for the adults, so I didn’t recognise what she was saying to be true, in other parts of the country, yes but not where we live. At the time I was on maternity leave and we didn’t have loads of spare cash as paying off quite a big mortgage. I think I was overwhelmed by all of this but also I loved just my own time with 4 year old DS and my newborn DD, we had lovely times on the beach after school and I felt like I don’t want to share him after he had seen others all day. As he is so sociable we went to the park mostly with his friends but sometimes I just wanted it to be the three of us as DH at work or just chilling out at home in the winter as we would play together, sing together, put on family performances which DS loved doing but those outside the family probably would think was OTT. I felt I couldn’t really explain that we were going home to make masks for a family performance of the Gruffalo at the weekend as it does sound a bit different and something you don’t have to do. Equally, DS loved setting up storylines with his figures and he needed time to do that on his own. He didn’t really want to share that with friends s he often felt they mucked things up.

Is there a park nearby that you could see them in as we approach summer, so casually hang out?

I think some English people do beat around the bush. They say "Sorry, we're busy", hoping you'll get the hint after a few times and stop asking, because they feel it would be rude to say "Actually, my child doesn't like playing with yours"