Parents and play date politics (Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP)

[Okeydokedeva]

Got a strong willed, sweet but shy 4yr old ds. He can make some wonderful spontaneous friendships but struggles in large groups. He has a good friend at nursery and she and he has a lovely friendship. Every day he tells me stories and dreams about her. His little face melts.

the mum of the girl is heavily pregnant. She is local and has lots of friends I think. We don’t have much in common beyond the kids. We organised a play date at mine and it was clear to all of us how well they got on. Since then she has made lots of excuses and I feel a bit of a nag/Wally. Eventually she messaged me saying I was ‘overwhelming’ and that she had said she was pregnant and not making plans. I’ve tried to explain to my boy that his friends mum is tired etc. he does keep asking. It sucks. I feel really sad and ashamed. I feel like I am no good at this making friends with strangers thing. But most of all I feel so sad for him as this is his fave friend by far and it’s been going on three months now like this.

any advice????

Agree with this. It's possible the girl has said privately that she doesn't want to play with OP's son again or maybe she wasn't as well befriended as he thought. The fact he seems very obsessed with her (talks about stories and dreams??) indicates he possibly may not have many other friendships at the nursery and is clinging onto the one child who is nice to him.

At this age, friendships are incredibly fluid. It's would be unusual for two 4 year olds to only play exclusively with each other. In most nurseries, kids have a loose group of friends that are interchangeable with a few that could be considered "best friends". It would be interesting to know if that girl also has other friends of the same gender (which is typical of nurseries, not trying to make it an issue here). And similarly, if OP's son has other friends who are boys?

From the little girls POV it's also good parenting if she understands that she does not owe anyone her company simply because they like her.

Very astute of you 🤣🤣
especially the apologising part

I don't want to stick the knife in, but this just makes you sound even more intense. People have given feedback and instead of looking at how you might have been perceived, you're flouncing and escalating!

Too much!

You don't need to never speak to other parents again, just send one message and the ball is a their court. If they're interested, they'll either say yes or come up with an alternative. Forcing things doesn't work.

If you were local to me I'd arrange a play date with you! I'm sorry this has happened.

Excellent and constructive post from @RoundWeGoAgain2 at 22.13 yesterday, thanks for re-posting @Hi2u

No that’s not true.

often first interactions involve kinda standing near someone, awkwardly making eye contact, then one person makes a quip about something (usually sarcastic).

For example, imagine you’re waiting to collect your child from school and there’s another parent nearby. It’s raining. You would make a bit of eye contact and smile. Then you could say “this rain’s a bit much isn’t it?” - said with a grimace and a small chuckle. Then the other person would agree and also make a sarcastic quip about the weather. Then you could say “is your child in year 1 too?” And they’d say yes or no. If they want to talk they’ll continue and ask you a question back. If they don’t want to talk they’ll probably kinda put their head down and just stop talking or go on their phone or just generally not try to keep chatting.

if they keep chatting, just before the conversation is about to end you might say “what’s your name by the way?” (The by the way is to soften the question and make it seem casual 🙄 we’re a troubled nation)

Or if you couldn’t ask what’s your name, you would smile at them upon seeing them walk up (not too intentionally - keep it awkward and casual) and say “I didn’t get your name the other day?”

BUT quite honestly the nuances of this country’s awkwardness are pretty extreme. Even people from other English language countries don’t get it. Sarcasm and complaining is a bonding exercise. It’s very hard and I’d be inclined to say be yourself and don’t worry toooo much because you’ll find your true people by being yourself. Life is too short to fake it. I would advise turning down the bluntness though as we are genuinely really sensitive and just can’t cope with that. Being honest I’m actually surprised that the woman you were rejected by was so blunt. Unless she’s just a rude woman, you must’ve really pissed her off. Although maybe she’s got big hormones atm?

Edited to add about the work question, no I wouldn’t just say what do you do? I’d try and talk about anything we might have in common first, anything situational, and then after a few times of speaking you could ask something like:

so, do you work around here?

or

a friend of mine is worrying about maternity leave, I’m a stay at home mum so I didn’t do that - did you take maternity leave?

or

what are you up to for the rest of the day?
And if they say they’re working you say oh where do you work?

it’s just about making questions less probing and direct.

This whole uproar about the word crush is hilarious.

Also, “sorry” is used interchangeably with, “excuse me”, in that context it is not an apology. Although you probably know that so don’t mean it in a patronising way.

I don’t think you should take it personally as much as it is maybe hurtful to have that kind of response. For me when my kids were little, there was an element of wanting for them for myself as I missed my eldest when he was at school all day. My DS’s school had a range of nationalities and I found that it wasn’t just the English that were not that good with opening at their home to play dates, also Japanese and Swedish Mums. They were lovely people but like me just preferred the park after school, despite being very good friends with the DD of the Japanese Mum DS never went to play at her house and I offered once but although grateful she said they had music lessons and other commitments after school. DS is now at the same 6th form college and he sees her at parties sometimes and they have friendship on their own terms as 17 year olds. Believe me it gets very straightforward at secondary school as you go from school gate chats and awkwardness to no knowledge of the friend’s parents at all. I became very good friends via school gates and a WhatsApp group which I’m still on and as an introvert I can’t believe I’m saying this but I miss those days.

From the little girls POV it's also good parenting if she understands that she does not owe anyone her company simply because they like her.

Absolutely this.

Just because you & your son are desperate for this friendship it doesn't mean that anyone else is & it's not too soon for him to start realising this.

Meet at a park, might be less ‘full on’
Good luck

I hear you.

I've not read the other posts to know what others think of you but it's so hard isn't it? My ds absolutely ADORED a girl at nursery but after one play date I could never organise another despite my repeated attempts. It's a fine line between persisting as the other parent might be a bit rubbish at organising, and harassing. I tried a few times gently then let it go. She was a busy lady with a split family and things so I used to just explain to ds about their commitments (although I suspect she didn't want to).

My ds is similar to yours I think and didn't make firm friends with anyone at nursery yet I know some of them were meeting up. It made me feel that it was something to do with him (or me!) but there's not a lot that can be done. It's a similar situation now he has started school and I'm trying to let it happen naturally and not force it but it's not happening yet and it worries me - but I am sure it will work itself out eventually.

We do have friends outside of school so I know that he can be/is liked.

Keep going, be patient, take opportunities that come your way x

Friend

To be honest it just sounds like the mum doesn’t necessarily have anything against seeing you but is busy and is feeling a bit overwhelmed trying to find to fit you in/ keep responding no.

I would just step back and say sorry didn’t mean to overwhelm you. You won’t ask again but remember that if they become less busy at any point and would like to meet then you are here and they can reach out for a play date

Perhaps you’re perceiving this rejection as being symbolic of your whole life in England. Counselling will definitely help you sort out those illogical feelings. Good luck

You're also trying to manage her husband's time by suggesting he socialises with your husband- do they even know each other?

Yes, this was an aspect that really struck me as very odd. DH would have been like "Do what? With whom?"

I have cut off a friendship with another mum who always wanted us to be in and out of each other homes because I found it overwhelming.

It's hard when you are personally not a very social person and then you have children and it's expected that you will make lots of small talk with other people just because they have friends of the same age, so I can sympathise with the other mum.

What I do instead is just drop a text and say, 'we're going to the park at this time, do you want to join us?' And I encourage them to enjoy the time they play with their friends at nursery/school. I have made it clear to my kids there are a select few of their friends who can come in and out for play dates and that's not likely to change. (Dreading teen years, but then I hope they will just hang out with their friends without me having to buddy up to the parents)

I was born in England with English parents and I agree some of our ways make no sense and I often wish we were as direct as some other countries. It makes friendships much harder to navigate.

The other mum might have a lot on, not be keen on play dates or other reasons for not meeting. I would let it go for now and just say to little one that he gets to see his best buddy every day at nursery and you will try arrange something for the future but it can't happen right now.

I would say at this age its quite tricky with school starting too. I am torn between arranging play dates with my boys best friend or keeping it to nursery only as we know they are going to different schools. I would hate for my boy to want to carry on the friendship and this friend forget him so the other mum might also be feeling the same. I think primary school will be easier as they establish longer lasting friendships

I do like play dates but I also work full time/have chores that need doing/ have holidays/ other family friends/ want to spend time with my children and husband doing our own thing so fitting it in is hard. It’s nothing against the people, it’s just that as a full time working mum with young kids I am really struggling from a time perspective (something I haven’t really experienced before so it’s new and quite overwhelming. I hate always saying no/we are busy and wouldn’t like to be on the receiving end but also can’t always commit. I do every couple of months but can’t handle every couple of weeks.

I think what may have happened is that you’ve used the word ‘crush’ and the parents have instantly decided that you’re a ‘weirdo’ rather than considering that you’re from a different culture.

I’m guessing that usually you’d have very little interest in people like this and that you’ve only been exposed to this sort of mentality since having children. I’ve experienced this sort of thing too because I have autistic children who didn’t have many friends. It’s heartbreaking when a mother discourages a friendship. Mostly I’ve been lucky though because their friends have been ND and so have their parents.

I think the word crush is fine- platonic crushes are a thing.
As for the woman and the playdates. She might be overwhelmed. She might not do playdates but you will find that there's loads of parents out there who will engineer their childrens' friends. They will decide who is an acceptable friend and who isn't based on their own prejudices. Doesn't matter how much the kids like each other. This can last all the way through primary school. She might not like you because you are 'foreign' or because you don't have the right house, or you aren't in her friendship group, or are too old, too young etc etc. Its shit but it happens all the time. Just stop asking and try and make some playdates with some other kids.
I'm in Scotland and it happens here as well. Some of it is barely disguised racism or snobbery. I'm Irish and even had a few examples of wrongly placed sectarianism. People can just be dicks.

I’m as British as they come and I ask people direct personal questions all the time and people irl, in general, like me 😁 maybe it’s how they’re phrased.

When you have female dc it is very off putting to have some kind of romantic attraction alluded to when they have a male friend. I wouldn’t be happy encouraging an intense friendship between my daughter and a male friend so I would decline meet ups - parks, parties, play centres would be ok though if I wasn’t struggling and heavily pregnant.

Your son will make new friends in a few months when he starts school, I’d give it a term at least before trying to organise play dates. I’d recommend a whole class party if funds allow in reception as hopefully your son will then get lots of reciprocal invites, you will get lots of opportunities to make low risk small talk with other mums and be able build something up from there. I’ve been doing this for over a decade and I don’t have any mum friends that have gone beyond the odd meal out - this is a blessing in disguise tbh 😁

I'm English and I need a book. Playground/nursery moms are from Mars as far as I was concerned - never got them

OP you're getting a very hard time here - I'm sorry for that

I’m sure you are a good person.

I think there may be two issues at play here and both could potentially be cultural.

First, “crush” in English implies an attraction to someone that carries an intensity of infatuation that would be rather disproportionate to a friendship, and accordingly it is used in romantic or sexual contexts. I do understand that other cultures are often more open to these implications in a child context, but in the UK ( and I would say other culturally close countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand, possibly also the US) it doesn’t sit well with our cultural notions of childhood and makes people a bit squeamish.

Secondly, I think you might be not reading some “ step back” signals. Again, this can be cultural as the above cultures tend to signal “give me space” through inaction, rather than coming out and saying it. The fact this lady has said something suggests she has tried this approach and is now resorting to being direct. It’s as well to learn this code now if you live here, as your dc will need to absorb it too. It’s normal and natural to want to reach out and friendships couldn’t blossom at all if no one did. Children in particular can be very focused on pursuing a particular person. However, I always tell my dcs to use the tennis game analogy. If you have issued an invitation that was declined, the ball is really in their court now to make the next approach. If after some weeks you get no approach, you might venture one more invitation but really if that is not accepted it’s time to back right off. Obviously this loosens up with well- established friendships, but, as a rule of thumb, if they really couldn’t take up the invitation but would have liked to, they will revert with an offer of their own. If they don’t, it’s quite possible it was a polite way of saying they aren’t interested in pursuing things. Well we say polite: you might well say cold, distant and oblique! But it’s a useful approach if you aren’t sure about how someone is responding to you.

As a final point, which isn’t cultural, I have at times felt a bit hotly pursued by parents in different circumstances from myself. I knew a lady who had no DH and just her little girl and she was always ready and prodding to do activities revolving around the little girl and suitable for that age group but possibly not the rest of our family. I knew she would feel hurt if she suggested a play date I declined at a time when my baby was needing to nap; or over the weekend when the last thing DH wanted was a toddler play date when he was trying to relax on Saturday morning. If this lady is pregnant, she probably isn’t willing to invest as much energy in the little friendship just now: she’s busy growing another little person and that’s taking up energy and mental space.

Hope this is all helpful. I’m sure you’re not a creep!

OP, some random thoughts from another immigrant (Scandi, been here 26 years).

First of all you have not failed your child at all. He’ll be off to school soon and make new friends. By the time he’s a teen, all this will feel very insignificant. My DS had two friends (brothers) at his pre-school, he absolutely adored them and the three of them were inseparable when there. We did not have playdates until the summer before the school started and these were only twice I think, in the local playground. The boys went to another school and only few years later my son had forgotten all about them.

I know it’s hard without any family around you. You feel the responsibility of having to be all and everyone to your child. Take some comfort in the fact that you have a lovely SIL and her DC even though they live a distance away. This will become invaluable connection for your child once he grows older.

In my native language people would also say there’s a crush between a young boy and girl or even refer to them as fiance/bride etc. But I wouldn’t use the language here as the connotation is not the same.

I felt so much for you when you said you’ve struggled after your disability and would just like to have a like-minded friend to spend time with. And how your friends ghosted you, it does hurt no matter how you try to rationalise it. Just carry on being openminded and friendly, plenty of people will respond to that, just be mindful of giving them space. I pull back if someone comes across as too intense.

Also be mindful of not falling into bashing the English when trying to bond with new people. My fellow scandis and many Eastern europeans I’ve met over the years, often get into snidey rants about the English, assuming I’ll eagerly join in but on the contrary I hate it and will take a step back . I have had my difficulties but on the whole the English (and all the Brits) have been lovely, welcoming and most often excellent company!

I wish you the best OP, this too shall pass.

Op, I don't think you've particularly done anything wrong. Some people are just really unfriendly for some reason. Probably the same ones that come on here saying they never want to go to a toddler group ever again because they can't handle it socially.

I too have built up a good few friends since having my ds, there are people out there who want to make a community and support each other and hang out. It sounds like you've found some of those people which is great.

Sounds like this mum, for whatever reasons, doesn't want to make friends for her child. Which is sad if you're son likes her daughter, but children are fickle and he'll probably have another best friend at nursery next month and their parents might be more friendly.

You sound like you are very good at making friends, just forget about the ones like her. Read the signals and move on. You've not done anything really.